Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Don Hanson on May 21, 2011 at 10:25am

Doesn't anyone building drifters use bedding compound on screws?  I haven't seen it mentioned.  I rarely run a screw home without some type of "goo" (that is a technical term) on it, whether is is Dolphinite bedding compound, Sika, silicone caulk...something.  It keeps the water out.  Depending on the placement, I will use different compounds, but in the old days...almost everyone used a variation of Dolphinite everywhere.

  As for boat nails, or silicon bronze "Anchorfast" ring-shank nails...do you obsessive types always make sure the anchor is in the same orientation? (<:   I don't much care for those.  I used to encounter them in repair jobs and they aren't the best thing for expediting a repair...

  Here in the northwest, there was a canoe builder who had steel 'forms'.   They would lay out one layer of red cedar strips keel to gunwale and a second layer longitudinaly then drive bronze nails through the two layers..the nails would hit the inner steel form and 'clench' themselves without the need for someone inside with a bucking iron...Cool old canoes.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Lawrence E. Long on May 21, 2011 at 11:29am

Don:  The canoe building method is exactly the way they used to build Old Town(guess where in Maine) canoes except they used steam bent spruce ribs.  Some 50+ years ago I was at the plant and there was 1 Native American- Pennobscot Tribe that did all the nailing of the planks.  They used copper tacks about 1 " long.  The guy would dump a small handfull of tacks into his mouth, pull them out one at a time and literally "throw" the tack into the cedar plank with his left hand-like a dart- and then hit it one shot with the hammer in the right hand. The guy was unbeliveabley fast- almost like a machine- bang,bang,bang-rarely did a tack need a second hit.  As I remember he was working on a piece rate basis depending on the length of the canoe.  They told me one day he swallowed a tack and the planking operation shut down for a day-waiting for it to "pass".  I guess thats why a cedar/canvas canoe costs an arm and a leg when built the old way before epoxy etc.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by AJ DeRosa on May 21, 2011 at 2:41pm

Nails and screws each have a place in drift boat construction.  I wouldn't substitute one for another because each is unique in its ability to perform.  As Randy mentioned, a nail is much more appropriate when joining 1/4" plywood to frames because you don't need to countersink a nail to get maximum holding power.  Whether you use epoxy or 5200 between frame and panel the ultimate strength comes from the goo and the nail just holds it in place as the goo cures.  They are also a much more attractive fastener in the panel, especially on a clear finish.  On the other hand a screw is better suited for attaching sacraficial pieces such as chine caps.  The advantage of a screw in this process is two fold.  First, it gives you much better control at geting the bedding goo, 3M 101, Sika Flex, Boatlife or whatever you prefer, to ooze just right to get that water tight bond.  Yes Don,  most knowlwdgable buiders do use bedding goo in appropriate places.  Obviously a sacraficial piece is much easier to remove by backing out a screw than trying to pull a ringshank or running  a saw blade through the goo to cut them.

My very first boat, an old boat of undetermined origin, was put together with ring shank nails everywhere.  As the wood aged and dried the ring shanks had a tendency to pull out.  John Ostrem and the folks at Boat Specialties  of Salem had a love affair with ringshank nails and even used them to attach shear rails and gunnels back in the 50's. I have been involved with a few restorations of these boats and found the same thing,  nails pulling out because there was no adhesive in the nailed joint and it made for a very weak connection.  Nails, screws and bolts all have their place in a well built boat.  So do appropriate adhesives and bedding compounds.  They all work in harmony with one another.  When restoring old boats or repairing newer ones the proper use of fasteners and adhesives/bedding componds make life much easier.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Don Hanson on May 23, 2011 at 7:22am

 

During my recent Don Hill 16-footer refurbishment project,  I found no traces of any bedding compound or caulk in the original work.   I found no ring shank nails in that boat.  He used all zinc fasteners, too.  Some of the screws were so rusted away I could take them out with my fingernails...no threads left and the wood around the screws also showed significant water damage.  The carriage bolts and cap screws in the gunwales were in sad shape... Problems that would have been 'better' if they'd used a bit of something during building to prevent  later moisture intrusion .

  I was taught that every screw in a boat needs something on it....within reason.  Stuff like interior joinery..not so much, but in the hull or anywhere that fastener would be expected to get frequent wetting, I was taught to goop it up with something before final assembly.

  It takes just a few seconds to 'dip' a screw into a bit of caulk or bedding compound on it's way into the pre-drilled hole..While apprenticing, I was 'caught' a few times by my mentor skipping the bedding compound and soundly berated...."That is just gonna rot out in a few years" I was told, rightly so.

  Don Hanson

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by AJ DeRosa on May 23, 2011 at 9:19am

Good advice DuH.  Makes sense to me and I'm sure there are many out there who understand.  I've always thought that the effort that goes into building/restoring wooden boats demands the very best in materials and proceedures.  Yes, it costs a bit more and takes a bit more time to step up to those proceedures but in the end a quality product is achieved.  Not all builders, commercial or backyard, march to this beat.  Some by design to "save" money and time in the short run.  These boats will work fine for awhile but if they are worked hard and put up wet  may end up being the boats that the plastic and aluminum guys point to a examples of the problems whith wooden boats. 

 

You are very fortunate to have had mentors at your side that were not afraid to hurt your feelings to emphasize import steps in the proceedure.  Most of us get it in small sugar coated doses here on the forum or by trial and error in our own little worlds of boat builders.  The fact of the matter is that there are lots of boats that were built on the cheap and still working resonably well.  Your restore is an example.  Lots of guys like and need cheap boats.  I need boats that look good, work hard and are easy to maintain so my choice of the best I can get is and easy decision.

 

Thanks for your input on this forum.  In this game you can never stop learning.  It's good juju to share.

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page