Basic question

I've never been in a drift boat. However I'm very interested in learning more. My question is regarding the seating of the rower. Do you always face foward and push the oars? On flat water do you turn around and face the stearn and pull on the oars? moving the boat foward as youre backwards like rowboats?

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Permalink Reply by Greg Hatten on August 25, 2009 at 9:15pm
paulv,
I've rowed forward, backward, standing, sitting... whatever it takes. It's part of the fun of drift boats, the front looks like the back.... actually IS the back... and the back is actually the front. All of it is up for delightful debate and endless opinions. You can go down the river forwards or backwards with the front downstream or the back downstream with your eyes looking up river or the other way around but you never, ever want to go down the river sideways... everyone agrees on that one!! Have fun figuring it out... and when you do, will you tell me?
Thanks so much.
GH
Permalink Reply by Karl Mueller on August 26, 2009 at 10:38am
Here's what I do-and I'll leave the historic debate out and simply call the pointy end the bow and the tombstone shaped end the stern fir the purposes of this thread.

Generally, face downstream facing the bow. Pull the oars away from obstructions as a rule. Pushing happens only rarely.
As for slack water pools that I want to get through, I continue facing the bow but turn the boat and row stern side downstream and look over my shoulder to make sure things do't get too wet.
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on August 26, 2009 at 6:24pm
hahahaha, I love this debate. I've stopped using the terms bow and stern because it always brings up this question.
I call them stem and transom. There is no question then, unless you have two stems.

To be fair to you Paul. The pointy end hits white water waves first so it sheds water and pierces that wave. The downriver speed of the boat is usually created by the river while the rower pulls to control position and slow progress, especially if you are fishing,

You can push on the oars when you need to but it's not very efficient. If you are going to pull your way down a slack water river it is much easier to turn the transom down river and pull.
Permalink Reply by paulv on August 26, 2009 at 9:22pm
So to be technical the transom end really is the bow correct? In a traditional rowboat your back faces the bow when rowing. the rapid robert would have the transom at the stern even tough you come down river stern first. kinda is a can of worms!

thanks for the good humor
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on August 27, 2009 at 7:23pm
You got it.
Permalink Reply by Jason Knight on August 27, 2009 at 9:03am
The chapter in Roger's book describes this about as good as it can be explained I think...
Paul check this out for some good reading on the subject.

http://riverstouch.com/origins.htm
Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on August 27, 2009 at 7:51pm
The pointy end is the bow, the tombstone end is the transom, is it really more complicated then that?

I would agree with what others have said about pointing the boat at obstacles and pulling away, but the rougher the water the more this changes IMO. When the water gets bigger its much more efficient to push the boat steering it like a car, use the river, instead of fighting it. When the river gets big you are not going to win in a strength competition against it, early forward ferry positioning and pushing on the oars is the way to go.

The second time I ever went through Mule Creek canyon I followed this dude in a 18' gear raft loaded to the hilt, easily over 1000 pounds. He threaded that narrow stretch of water in that huge boat making it look easy by pushing the whole way through. Up until that point I had always rowed defensively pulling away from anything I didn't want to hit. What I learned that day is the oars go both ways, and the more time I spend behind them, the more I have learned that pulling is not always the best way to avoid things, especially when your boat is heavy, pulling on the oars does almost nothing.

Practice it sometime, or follow an experienced rafter down river sometime and watch very closely how they row. Its not exactly the same thing obviously, but for me learning how to get a heavy raft downriver has made rowing my driftboats way easier, and IMO opinion safer.

Mike
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on August 29, 2009 at 12:37pm
Ah, yes it is more complicated than that Mike. I fall into the camp that the tombstone end is the bow. It is a little bit important to the evolution of the boat on the Mckenzie; however, it just makes for fun discussion around the campfire on the river.

Early 1940s: The Kaarhus Square ender had a bow with a stem behind the rower and the wide flat transom in front of the rower that went down the river first. The rowers back is to the bow as should be in a row boat.

The late 1940s Woodie Hindman put a stem on both ends to prevent the square end from being pushed around in big waves. That proved to be very popular on rivers with standing rolling water.

Very late 1940s early 1950s there are mixed stories about the first transoms. Roger's book outlines it the best. Owners that worked these boats in slow water would use a small motor rather than row, or would use a motor to go back up stream. On the Rogue River the boats used small motors to "drive" materials, mail, etc. to the up river lodges. In both cases the transom was put on the bow of the boat so the downriver stem would still part water with ease.

So, now we have a boat that is a bit confused. Either the rower is sitting backwards or the motor is on the bow. Either way, there's something that isn't quite right with this boat. But it sure does work.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on August 28, 2009 at 6:59pm
On fishing waters pulling the oars to stay back of the drift is the ticket most of the time. On big water there are times you better be pushing with all you've got. If you can't avoid a hole then you will need some momentum to climb out. Push into it and then get the blades into the water hands up and hope the current can push on the oars and keep you moving. The waves of hermit rapid in the Grand Canyon are huge. If you aren't moving and you don't get over wave number 5 well, you may float over it upside down. Other times an angle of attack pointing a bit toward either bank and pulling away from obstacles can keep you away from trouble. If you try to push your way through Upset rapid it is likely that in the hole you will be. As they say face the danger and pull like hell. Nothing like it!

Get out there, watch, row, learn and get better with every run. Sometimes anyway. Just don't take on the class IVs on your first run.
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on August 29, 2009 at 12:44pm
You are right Larry, I didn't mean to imply that pushing wasn't normal. I meant to imply that pulling is a more efficient use of power than pushing. As you point out there are times when you can use the power of the deep water without rowing at all.

When you are on the river you do what you gotta do. Stalling on a big wave is always bad news.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on August 29, 2009 at 8:40pm
Randy,

My post wasn't meant to imply you said anything which wasn't accurate. No question that I have much more power pulling the oars. As a fisherman that's all I did most of the time. Later on I started to row on bigger water and when I needed to push and get moving I found I was usually late on the move since the power wasn't there. I started working a lot pushing the oars to get better at it. I still under estimate the the time it takes to move forward when you add in the speed of the current. Each season I try a move that doesn't quite work because I started too late.

As I was learning and today at the age of almost 60 I love to watch people work fast water. On the big rapids of the Colorado many people want to do a quick scout then make the run. I really like to hang out and watch everyone run. One of my favorite things is to camp and have a layover day above a big rapid. Take my chair down to the river and watch people run all day. See what works and what doesn't

This is a great sport, fly fishing or just river camping. When you think you have it, the next thing you know you get your ass kicked. We keep learning and there are new lines to run. This past summer on a Grand Canyon trip I ran new lines through Crystal and Hance rapids. I was with new people who said just follow my line. Everything went fine. I made my first run of Crystal on the left side. I set up, pushed in and that was all I had to do. I still can't believe it went that easy. The right side run pushes to center where the big hole is. I have had a good run on the right side but I was pulling with everything I had. It's great when you make it and watch a monster hole pass by. Had I not floated with them I might never have tried what they suggested.

Off to the Green river tomorrow to try out my new 16 footer.
Permalink Reply by Tom Martin on August 29, 2009 at 9:45pm
This is GREAT reading. In building the GEM replica (just posted some more photos tonight), the seat faces the transom. It's clear Fulmer got the double ender idea from a visit with Woodie in 1945. In the winter of 46-47, Fulmer built the MOJA, a 15 foot McKenzie double ender. He and his wife ran the MOJA from Shiprock to Lee's Ferry that year.

I can't help but think Fulmer kept in touch with Woodie, because in the winter of 51-52 he built the GEM, a McKenzie double ender with a transom. In the GEM, Fulmer faced the transom. In the photos and film we have of Fulmer in Grand Canyon in 55-56-57-58 he is rowing downstream, transom first, unless in the big stuff, like Hermit...at 75,000cfs. In most of the big drops, there were folks on shore to take photos and lighten the boats. The rowers worked ferry angles to get out of the wave train and into the eddy at the foot of the rapid. Lava was lined on the left. Even back then, Fulmer writes about having a hard time figuring out what's the bow and the stern.

Left at Crystal Rocks! It's a sweet run! The right run in a wooden boat is getting real tight...

Larry, what was your new line through Hance? What did you do? yours, t

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