Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Herb Jacobsen on February 14, 2009 at 12:00pm

Mike,
I have only been through the Wild and Scenic section of the Rogue. I always enjoyed going down there. First time I ran it was from Graves Creek. I looked at that first pour off and wondered what the heck I was getting into. One season I made 15 trips through the canyon. Last trip in October, that year, was pretty wet.

I hear you about the Upper Rogue. The Bogachiel and the Hoh, at times, are like that. Too dang many boats. When I was on the Rogue we had the same start dates as Dick Helfrich. We stayed at Upper Black Bar and they were at Lower. Always visited with them. Steve and Dave Schaeffers were with him at the time. Those were some fun days.......

I never did like running Slim Pickens,,,,, Never ran it on the right. Always nosed up on the rock and rode the cushion around to the left....

Steelhead on a fly has been my passion for years. My biggest so far was 24 pounds. Never have fished BC as I was always busy when it was on.....

Greg went with us down the Middle Fork one time. That is who is in the front of my boat, I did not know he had a trumpet with him at the time. He started tooting on it when we were half way down 1st Slide.... I just about lost my concentration, at that moment, from laughing. That boat was on its 18th trip down the Middle Fork.

Herb

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Peak on February 13, 2009 at 5:08pm

and I'm coming from a rafting background, not a fishing one (although I do fish), so I'm building a boat specifically for whitewater.

I've heard it said that dories "dance" through/over rapids/waves, where rafts lumber through them. so much energy is absorbed in all that rubber, and the ride in a dory is that much more lively.

a dory will be fine when there is enough water. when there is less water and more rocks, I'll take the raft.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on February 13, 2009 at 5:30pm

Jeff ,

It is a completely different experience in a dory/driftboat then a raft that's for sure. Through most rapids/waves a driftboat goes up and over most things, is quicker to turn, and carries more speed through the rapid, which is all great as long as you are good enough on the sticks and are very precise with your strokes. But for me, the faster more technical the water, that slow feeling raft starts feeling pretty good, cause it allows you to make a few (or more) mistakes and not sink. If I have to make ten or more moves through a 100 yard rapid I'll take the raft, or even better my cat any day.

Mike

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Peak on February 13, 2009 at 7:57pm

good distinction: "big water" (in the whitewater sense) vs. "technical water". there will be no technical water for my dory. strictly big western rivers in flood stage (Colorado, Green, Yampa, Salmon) . yes, a very specialized boat.

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Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 14, 2009 at 7:17am

Mike,

Ten or more moves through a 100 yard rapid?

Any rapid like Red Creek on the Green which is perhaps 1/3 of a mile which give us the chance of a few moves is not really big white water. It's class 3/4 only for 50 yards. A long rapid on the Colorado like Deubendorff or Hance isn't going to give you 5 moves let alone 10. This past summer my boat mate did not have the power to get left at Hance. The river had us and it took both of us working the oars just to hold our line and not get pushed where we didn't want to be.

Another time a person in our group was rowing an 18 foot heavily loaded bucket boat and could not hold the line in Crystal. She took a wave and got washed off the oars. The strongest man on earth would have no hope of rowing a 1500 pound raft off of a bad line in a rapid like Crystal. You get the entry right or else. After the entry I have only been given one or 2 moves at most when I have screwed up. If you row directly down river center and into the ledge hole at Lava Falls well, your one move has just been used up. You are in that hole until the river lets you out and it may be upside down when it does.

I am a big guy of 6-3 225 pounds and I think my friends will tell you that I am ok at the oars. But thats about it. If I get it wrong, and I have, it's just defense and try to take what the river gives you to get through. I got totally overpowered last year in Warm Springs on the Yampa because I entered too far left. As big as I am I could not ferry off that line. I got hit by a lateral which pushed me back to the right side of the run, just by chance. I couldn't make even one move. Instead of trying to power my way out to where I wanted to be which was not going to work. I should have just squared up and went with it. I also tried to row left around the rock island below crystal last year after a right side run and didn't make it. I misjudged the current and the power and could not get across river and got stuck in the rock garden. It took 2 hours and 2 Z drags to get out of there. I won't make that mistake again. I was rowing a cat on that one. Some times we get it wrong but, when you get is right,,,,,,, what can I say. I had a perfect run through Horn Creek rapid last summer. I got the entry right with about 4 pulls and never needed the oars for the rest of the run. If it was that easy all the time I guess we wouldn't need to do it.

Jeff who has posted to this thread is a big strong rower like I am who also has a lot more skill and I have a feeling he would agree that you are not going to get many chances to use you strength when you have screwed up.

Raft, Dory, it's still rowing but, like Jeff said, rubber is not the same. When you pull the oars on a raft a lot of stuff starts flexing. I don't know how much of the energy gets to the end of the oars but it's not even close to amount that a dory sees. The rocker on the bottom of a dory also allows it to spin much faster. When I leave my dory and take over a raft it takes a few minutes to get used to the fact that they move much slower. When in a raft I like as much air in the sucker as possible. Many of my friends row very soft rafts. To me, the difference is huge between a s soft, then solid raft and a dory.

They are not the same and that's all fine. One thing which has been mentioned. You can't hit rocks with a dory. They need to stay home when the water is low.

It is a special thing to row a dory which you built with your own hands through some big water. People are amazed at your skill, they drool over our boats. They think those are real big water boaters. What a laugh that is but, I'm not going to be the one who tells them that almost anyone can do. I will also help anyone build a boat. What kind of task could be more fun or rewarding. Perhaps building a plane?

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Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on February 14, 2009 at 9:58pm

Absolutely spectacular stories gents!


Larry,
Let me try and explian the ten move thing.
I've never had the opportunity to run the kind of water you run yet. We just don't have those kind of high volume rivers in southern oregon. So my definition of big water is somewhat different then yours, but I would say no less difficult. Take the Illinois for example. I finally hooked up with a very experienced group of guys who got me down this beautiful piece of water just last november. To run the Illinois is a task unto itself. The river is 100% rain fed so it only runs late fall to early spring and even then only sporadically during this time period. The key is to time it so after a storm you have enough water to float, but there can be no chance of precipitation while you are on the river cause it is prone to flash floods. It can go from the ideal 2000cfs your looking for, to 20,000cfs your gonna die flows overnight with a good dose of rain. You've got to imagine a river about a third or smaller the size that you are used to running. Its boated in a complete wilderness area inaccessible by roads, very steep and very deep. This run boasts 150 rapids in 35 miles which include seemingly uncountable class 2-3, 11 class 4 - 4+, and one 400 yard long class 5 monster known as the Green Wall. This river has it all if your after technical boating. Its the most rock dodging, ledge dropping, fast and furious run I've ever done. Quite honestly, its all the river I will ever want to challenge, I have no problem saying it is the top of my boating ability. All that being said, I can't wait to get back and challenge it again. We were actually supposed to be on this river this weekend but the flows just aren't there, so my cat and I will patiently wait....

Herb,

Great stories about the Rogue, I never tire of them. Everybody that boats the canyon always comes away with a story. To me the Rogue is the ultimate drfitboat trip (I haven't got to run the middle fork yet, so this opinion may change after I get to do that!) it seems like on every trip the rapids are just big enough that one or another always gives a big pucker, close call moment at some point in the trip.

Its funny you mention Grave creek falls, last october on a low water trip in my driftboat I ran straight down the tongue on that one and ended up with over four inches of water in the bottom of my willie and one wet passenger as water came pouring over the bow and sides from how steep the drop was. My raft buddies on the trip said the boat looked like it just torpedoed into the bottom of the foam pile, they thought we had sunk for sure till the boat popped back up!

Slim pickens, I had practiced running it on the right in my raft before attempting it in my driftboat and we had a great run through there, but it still seemed extremely tight to me. I swear there wasn't a foot of clearance between my boat and the giant rock. I might run it the way you do from now on water permitting.

I've always seen at least one Helfrich boat down there in the fall. I hope to talk one of the Helfrich guys who frequent this board into leading us down some of the upper McKenzie during the wood boat festival in april as I still haven't boated any of this river either.

I remember seeing a pic of Greg somewhere on his site standing up in a boat playing his trumpet! Hilarious!

You vet guides have the life man. If I could do it all over again this is what I would do for a living.

Mike

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Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 15, 2009 at 7:14am

Mike,

I hope to get north one day to see what those waters a like. Everything I am told is that the flows of the Snake can dwarf the Colorado.

I see the picture. When the green gets low it becomes pinball with rocks. I don't know about the comment of "top of my ability". I have seen people rent rafts from Pro outfitters down south and take them down the grand. They make some very questionable moves and I am sure it's due to lack of experience . But,,,,, they are out there and they are doing it and they get down river 200 plus miles. I am an average boat handler at best. I get buy and sometimes my size and pull can get me out of a jam. I am going back down the colorado again this summer. At this point the plan is to take my dory. I can handle all but about 5 of the rapids. In the 5 big one anything can happen. Lots of people flip and swim and sooner or alter it will happen to me. As long as I can patch the holes in the boat and get it down river that's all that matters. I feel the key is to work to be as safe as possible, the boats are just stuff which gives us the change to have some fun.

The Grand Canyon is a magical trip. The whitewater is only a small part of why we want to be there. Every camp is like the greatest place I have ever been. Even as a passenger who never touches the oars It's still the best kind of trip I can think of. I have only seen pictures of the Salmon and I can't wait to get there.

The idea of running cataract canyon or the lower Colorado at 85,000 plus, films from 1983 of Crystal Rapid look frightening. It's scary at 15,000 let alone 100,000. I would like to see it but I don't know if I would want to be in the boat and I know for sure that I have no chance in hell of getting a dory through that stuff.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on February 15, 2009 at 9:33am

Larry,

When I said the top of my ability, that comment was meant for me and me only. I don't have any problem admitting I don't want to be on any water more violent then what the Illinois can dish out. Your right, any fool can luck out and maybe get through a couple class 3's maybe even a class 4 if your really lucky. But on a river like the Illinois that kind of luck will run out quickly I guarantee it. Many of the rapids down there have multiple choices from the top, but once in them you see that in reality there is usually only one way down and you have to make multiple moves to get out of the boulder mazes, its almost like kayaking in a raft. That river has so many undercut walls, boulders, and body pinning potential on it, a swim would be terrifying and dangerous to the max.

Even Blossom bar on the Rogue, a class 4, claims at least one life every year. You can sit on the rocks above it and watch boat after boat have perfect runs, but eventually along comes some guy that you can tell is in way over his head. Most times they'll bounce off every rock in the entire rapid and fumble through, but to me this is just idiotic beyond belief, and IMO these types have no business on the river at all. Honestly the first time I came through this rapid I really wondered why it was rated so high, but now that I've seen what happens there too often with first timers, I fully understand why its rated the way it is. Its a consequence rating, if you don't make the move at the top, you could be in big trouble simple as that. The first run I made through there I followed three older gentlemen down whom I would guess were all in there upper sixties in very nice, but very old Alumaweld driftboats. I chatted with them in the eddy at the bottom of blossom and found out they get together once a year with there wife's and lodge hop taking in all the Rogue has to offer and had been doing so for 35 years. They asked me if that was my first trip through and I said yes it was but how could you tell? They said to take a look at my own hands because they were shaking! We all got a good laugh out of that and one, and one of them told me that my shaking hands were a good thing, he said and I quote"if you dont get jacked up going through that one, you must be dead!"

The second time I went through Blossom I had got behind a guy in an 18' gearboat that was stacked so high with gear he couldn't see the water in front of him without putting his boat in a ferry angle, dead serious. I watched him first snake his way through mule creek canyon without ever touching a wall. Then I pulled out and watched him do the same thing all the way through blossom. To say this guy was a pro is an understatement, he made it look so easy it was disgusting, all the while in a boat hauling probably a 1000 pounds of gear.

So in my first two trips through the canyon I was educated on how to get a driftboat and a fully loaded raft through blossom by guys with more rowing experience then I will ever have, and it was all just pure luck I was there at the same time they were. I should also mention that on my first tips through the canyon I was running a solo boat, just me and my buddy up front, both 3 day trips with no other boats in my party! At that time I had zero boating buddies, but I had rowed a few other rivers and had studied the lower rogue all I could so I felt like I was as prepared as I could be both mentally and gear wise. Would I do it this way again? Hell no. But I don't regret it, and it was an exciting way to see the canyon for the first time to say the least!

Mike

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Permalink Reply by Greg Hatten on February 16, 2009 at 7:26am

Hey Herb... caught your comment on Slim Pickens. I ran it right & it was "skinny" through there!! Had to tuck the oars in to fit through that little key hole. It was fun - but a little too close to disaster... next time I want to try running that around to the left.
GH

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Permalink Reply by Herb Jacobsen on February 16, 2009 at 8:41am

Greg,

You have to bow up on the rock and then ride the cushion to the left. You end up tucking your right oar but there is a lot more room. If you get too far to the left there is a lot of rocks. Have a good run.

Herb

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Permalink Reply by Herb Jacobsen on February 16, 2009 at 10:13am

By the way, I forgot to mention that there are a few guys who have run the Illinois in open drift boats and did not sink them. I always wanted to run it but did not ever get the chance. From what I heard the Green Wall was quite interesting in a wood drift boat.......

Herb

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Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on February 16, 2009 at 11:31am

I have heard this too Herb. I would imagine the flows have to be just right. When we went down it was so low that I could not see it happening. I also couldn't see it happening on the high end either, maybe somewhere in the middle it gets softer.

Mike

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