Double Ender White water Dory

 

Hey Guy's & Gal's,

 I am looking for a set of plans for a Double ender White water Dory.

I would like to build a 17' at least and prefer a Stich & Glue build, although I can convert a framed boat to stich & glue if necessary.

 

Anybody got some good direction for obtaining some plans on this type of boat.

 

Thanks

Mike

Views: 3904

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by chris towles on July 9, 2011 at 7:27am
Interested to hear what you find. I'm hoping to build a 17x 54, but haven't seen anything in the realm. I'll probably measure a few boats and try my own hand at designing since I want that size plus a flat spot, and higher sides ...?26" at the locks probably. Seems like other than the Briggs and the rogue that there are not many dory designs out there for whitewater. I'll probably just modify a mckenzie since it is the tried and true shape in my opinion
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on July 10, 2011 at 10:50am

Agreed Chris.

Greg Tatman designed a 17.5x54 high side a number of years ago.  It think this is a very solid tried and true McKenzie Style boat for what you are describing.  It turns out that the boat is a little too big for most western water.  The 17x52 is a much more popular size. 

 

Sanderson and I agree with much of what is being written on this thread.  We prefer a little more flair and are just now finishing a prototype of an 18x56 boat with a lot of flair and some dished out bottom.  We think like this size and think that decked it could be a great all around boat for most water.  Right now we have started without the high sides because of the wind problems that high side boats have. If you have a deck and can shed the water then the high side is not a critical.  I'll post some photos soon.  This boat might suffer from the same lack of popularity as the 17.5x54 but only time will tell.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Scroggins on July 9, 2011 at 10:42am
I see from another forum (small world, huh?) that you're aware of Roger Fletcher's double-ender Briggs plans, if he has them. You might take a look at Jeff Peak's double-ender. He has some Picasa images documenting construction. Andy Hutchinson might be a good source for ideas. Also, maybe give a call to Grand Canyon Dories? They build with foam but might have some good information for you.  I am also eager to hear what you find. Good luck!
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on July 9, 2011 at 11:14pm

Jeremy Christenson is building a boat in the same shop I work in from plans he got from Andy Hutchinson.  He got plans for both 48 and 56 inch bottoms.  The plans are also for both double ender and with transom.   I don't really think the plans are worth the money.  A builder could start with the Briggs plans from Rogers book and modify them to fit their needs.

 

As for not many dory design, I think it might be that they are all a lot alike.  I build 56 inch bottom Mckenzie 16 foot 6 boats for white water.  I don't really like a boat which tracks as straight as the Briggs design.  All and all the bottom of the boats I build are not that different then the Briggs in profile other then the extra few inches.  I am not one who is convinced that the 48 inch bottom is a good thing.  When you add 2 feet and move up 18 foot side panels the bottom flattens out.   The only real difference is that with higher sides we can't get 2 side panels from 1 4X18 foot sheet.  For white water I don't feel 4 foot is workable.  If the stem goes up the transom must go down.  In big water the sides are just too low when building from 4 foot material.

 

As for design, dories are not complex.  There are only 3 panels, 2 side and 1 bottom.  A sea kayak is much more complex.  Anyone who has built one can modify the length and come up with a reasonble boat.

 

I'm not sure there is much advantage to adding length to get a double ender.  It would be nice to hear what others have to say about a comparison.

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Mike Collier on July 10, 2011 at 5:53am

Thanks for the input guys,

 

Due to the little response I'm getting on this subject, I am thinking of just modifying the Kingfisher since I realy like the hull design anyway. I am also thinking about making it a full 60" wide in the bottom and use the same rocker I used on the Kingfisher, 10" in front and 12" in the rear with 2' of flat spot in the middle. I have found this rocker to be a good performer; it tracks well without being too much and spins easily but not too easy when going through those high waves.

I will also add some flare to the side panels and raise the panel hight 2-3 inches. 

I will use a Plascore bottom, wood for side panels and Plascore for the Bulk heads to reduce weight.

Now being on a all wood boat forum I am certain there are many who will disagree but, with this large of boat, weight is certainly going to be an issue so I will need to reduce the weight where I can WITHOUT compromising structural integrity. I think the Plascore will provide that.

 

I would still welcome input on design as I have never built a white water Dory and I have only built one boat thus far, so I am still a novis on building boats but plan on building several more before my time here on this earth is through.

 

Mike

Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on July 10, 2011 at 10:33am

I agree with Larry that the dory design is not complex.  Two side panels and one bottom panel.  There have been a lot of historical changes to configurations that we can learn from. 

 

There are a couple of things that I think are important as you describe what you want above.  1. Flair is a wonderful way to manage displacement.  The Briggs boats that are 48 inches at the bottom have a lot of flair, which is typical of the Rogue boats.  That flair allowed the boat to displace a much smaller amount of water when running a light load, but displace a large volume of water when running a heavy load.  The smaller bottom was also more efficient for the small motors they used in the early days of the Rogue.  Obviously the 48 inch measurement came from the size of a plywood panel but as early as 1962 experimentation was going on with wider boat bottoms.  As a rule, most people on the West Coast chose to keep the cost of materials lower because of the efficient use of plywood at 48 inches.  The added benefit of the wider bottom was determined to not be worth the additional cost of materials and labor. 

 

The narrow bottom is a help for the up river trips that the Rogue boats were doing with small motors.  Yes the bottoms got wider as the motors got bigger and especially the wider transoms allowed bigger motors so very quickly the big motored Rogue boats turned away from being a dory and turned into a jet sled.

 

As you decide to widen your bottom and raise the height of the side panel you need to think about the overall beam at the shear line.  How much beam do you want.  Once you get over 85 inches or so the boat starts to feel very large and you begin to limit the rivers you can run the boat on because of its size. You will quickly get to a displacement of over 2000lbs.  So one of the first considerations you should make is how much weight on do you want to row when the boat is loaded.  The second consideration is how small of a river do you want to be able to run? 

 

If you want a boat for giant white water only then bigger is better until you reach the point that you can't control the boat because of the weight. If you want to have the option to comfortably run the slower waters of the Yellowstone or many of the wide slow rivers of Washington or the tighter big water like the Narrows in Mule Creek Canyon of the Rogue then you will not want the boat to be too over sized.

 

If you want a 60 inch bottom I recommend that you take some of the flair out of the sides in order to maintain a reasonable beam at the shear.  Taking out some flair will also add freeboard and the boat sides will feel higher when you are in the water without forcing you to raise side panel height. 

Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on July 10, 2011 at 10:39am

Building internal boat compartments with wood and reinforcing it so it will stand up to being walked on is just too heavy.  I also recommend Plascore.  You can get it with Okume face if you want it to look like wood.  Every point of displacement inside the boat is a pound that you can't take with you on your trip.

 

Plascore bottoms is something that Sanderson and I will be experimenting with this summer.  There is no doubt that a low center of gravity is better for your boat design.  Saving weight on the very bottom of the boat is not necessarily a great place to make a weight savings.  I don't have a strong opinion yet because we haven't run the experiments.

 

Plascore for bulkheads is an obvious win.  That is a must do for decking and bulkheads.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on July 10, 2011 at 10:44am

As you add the length to the boat the performance characteristics are going to feel much different on the river.  The Kingfisher design that you describe above will feel very different than the same design that is scaled up to a longer boat.  The longer the boat the slower it will turn.  The heavier the boat the more momentum affects it.  It will be slower to start a movement and slower to stop a movement.  The rhythm of the river will not change much.  The water speed and distance between rocks, holes, or eddies are the same; therefor, the larger boat will feel much different on the water and require much different timing and set up than the same hull shape in a smaller scale.  On the same water it will feel more sluggish but it will also maintain more momentum through waves, be less affected and be more stable.

 

I'm trying to say that the same design sized up is going to feel much less responsive and will require you to set up and plan your run earlier and make very deliberate decisions. 

Permalink Reply by Jeff Scroggins on July 13, 2011 at 10:42am
I think Andy's patterns and advice are worth the cost to a novice like me.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on July 14, 2011 at 5:25pm

You may be missing a point.  If you are a novice at this then your first task might be to find out what behavior you want from the hull.  Do you want it to track straight or do you want to be able to move around a bit.  Are you 6 foot 5 or 5 foot 6.  I am 6 foot four and my setup doesn't work well for a person who is 5 foot 4.  You may need to adjust things for your size.  The more you learn before starting the better chance you will have to tune the plans you pick to your situation.

 

I am not a big fan of the Briggs hull.  It turns too slowly and I feel the 48 inch bottom makes it sink too low in  the water.  At any rate others will like it for the same reasons I do not.  Before buying any plans Rogers book can answer a lot of your questions.  I would start by looking at the side panel layouts of the Mckenzie, Rogue and Briggs plans.  After some study it will become clear to you what makes them different and it might become easier to pick the style which is to your liking.

 

I think you will also find that the book will give you the plans you are after,  that is if you want a 48 inch bottom.  All the plans in the book use 48 inch bottoms.  The Briggs plans are all in the book.  As was mentioned Jeff Peak built the Briggs from the book and got some modified numbers from Roger to make it into a double ender.

 

Not trying to take money out of anyones pockets on the sale of a set of plan, just calling it the way I see it.

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Jeff Scroggins on July 16, 2011 at 10:17am
Thanks Larry. It isn't the first and won't be the last time I've missed a point.  I'll use Roger's book for a reference as well as advice from here and other places on the web, but to me Andy's patterns and advice are worth the cost. An experienced builder like yourself would naturally think otherwise.
Permalink Reply by Robb Grubb on July 10, 2011 at 1:40pm

Mike,

As Ihedrick and Randy say, dories / driftboats are not complex animals. A McKenzie boat's panels are all straight cuts (amazing since when built they are curvy lovelys!) and the Rogue and Canyon dories, depending on who builds them have a little curve on the bow and stern side panels at the chine.

 

I built (hull by Mike Baker, finishing and decks by me) an 18 foot 9 inch gunnel x 54 inch bottom boat

(http://www.woodenboatpeople.com/profiles/blogs/ta-dah-custom-18-x-5...)

basically from a Don Hill line with higher sides, more rocker and more flare. This boat rows, turns and maneuvers better than my 16x48 standard. This boat also stops on a dime with 9.5 foot oars. Overall, I am very happy with it. I have loaded it to the gills with stuff and taken it on the Deschutes and Owyhee River in eastern Oregon and it performs perfectly in technical and large volume water. The beam at oarlocks is 86 inches (pretty wide, almost too wide, I yearn for the day it gets wedged in Slim Pickens and creates a dam).

 

If I built another one, I would go with:

- 18 1/2 foot gunnel

- Come down on the bow height, which means the transom would come up a little

- 52 inch bottom width, with just maybe one degree less flare (which will also help bring the bow height down) to get the width at oarlocks down, (as Randy expresses, it can become cumbersome as well as too much flare requires you to have to use cobra oarlocks or build them like the Canyon boats and not the standard McKenzie boat blocks to allow for vertical oar movement. Plus if you go with higher sides (which I like, for more compartment space) a lightly loaded boat makes for more vertical of an oar trajectory into the water, then your oar handles are at your forehead, unless you have an 11 -12 foot oar, then nobody can pass you on the river :)

I don't know how much my boat weighs yet, but it does not seem heavy, even with all the extra frames and decking (3/8 " fir) added for the compartments.

 

As far as plans go, good question, since you are stitching and gluing, its seems you could add some height to your side panel cuts at the transom / stern and just 'eyeball' some lines to extend a transom boat into a double ender...

 

It might be fun to take a Ray Heater double ender and 'super size' it...

 

Good luck, Have fun, Research - Robb Grubb

www.RiverTraining.net

 

RSS

© 2024   Created by Randy Dersham.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service