heavy water decking

This is my first post as well as my first wooden boat, so please be gentle. Anyway I'm thinking about a 14' x4' drifter(stitch and glue) as a winter project. I've ordered a couple of books on the subject and so far from what I can tell there is a couple of subjects that aren't covered so well by the "classic" books. For starters I'm an East coast paddler who spends most of his time on skinny technical water in either a kayak ao a raft with the family. However lately multiday trips have come up on the radar and a second boat is needed for that(5 plus gear). Not that a wooden drift boat is going to be my gear hauling problem solver. But I figure my 16 year old with 3 or 400 pounds worth of gear would be ok and we would put the other 4 in the raft.And anyway I really just want to build one of those buggers. Back to the question, what I don't see plans for or a lot of people covering in books is completely decking a boat for whitewater use. I'm confident enough in my carpentry skills to get it done on my own but I'm also positive I will overbuild it and negate the small,light maneauverable boat idea. I also figure that decking the boat would alleviate some new oarsman problems. These boats have been built for quite some time now and I'm pretty sure better minds than mine have nailed this subject down by now. My other question is about the advantages/disadvantages of making it a self bailer and how to accomplish that feat. Keeping in mind that the boat has to have room for two passengers up front(occasionally), and it will be a whitewater boat and not a fishing boat. Any advice on these two subjects would be great and sorry for such a long post but beer does that to me sometimes.

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Permalink Reply by Ron Shealer on October 2, 2011 at 9:45am
Where on the east coast?  There are a few photos in the gallery of boats all "decked out" ;-) . I am sure a few of those folks will put in some replies.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on October 2, 2011 at 11:12am

Sean,

 

Here is a  link to a web sit of my last decked whitewater boat project.  It's not a wood boat but just think plywood and it's all the same.  Process is the issue here not materials

 

mountaindogs.net/plascorehull

 

If you wish to make things self bailing then all the floor levels must be above water line and you will need to make a best guess as to where that line will be.   Another option is to use small 1 amp 500 gallon pumps and not worry about floor levels.  Most boats are open drift boats for shorter runs and setup for fishing and mostly on class III runs.  When moving up to class IV water it's time for most to leave the open boats home.

 

The folks here are mostly building traditional framed all wood boats.  Montana-riverboats.com has a forum which is more stitch and glue.  People are starting to build with composites as well as wood.

 

Most white water rowers build the classic flat bottom Briggs dory with higher sides.  I prefer the Mckenzie boats but with higher sides also.  You will need to dig a bit to find out more about each design. 

 

 

Permalink Reply by sean williamson on October 3, 2011 at 8:51am
Thanks for the advice. To answer the previous poster first, I'm from Philadelphia. My home river is the Lehigh(class2/3) and the Youghigheny(class2/4) with some trips to West Virginia and New York. I got a look at fletcher's book and also a short peek at "montana riverboats" and it looks like I'll definately be able to come up with all the answers I need to get started. Some things still nag at me from a kayakers backround though. Most of the decked boats I have seen so far have their decks some distance below a wood gunwale. It seems like you are giving the water a spot to grab your boat and flip it. Most kayk decks are not only seemless along its top edge but they are also crowned in the middle to shed water and gain interior volume. At least it works with a kayak; no matter whether your dropping a small waterfall or powering through haystacks much larger than the actuall boat itself. Your average 8'(75 gal) river runner spends a lot of it's time at least partially submerged if not fully. Paddler experience and  expertise notwithstanding the boat always wants to come up straight and I would think the reason is at least partially because of its smooth edge and middle crown. Anyway I have a lot ot think about now and thank you for that.   
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on October 3, 2011 at 12:01pm

Well,

 

I am from Philadelphia as well but, 30 years ago.  Got cut up on the rocks of the Lehigh once and never went back.  Had a few fun trips on the Yough.  A high school friend's family had a Delaware river front house on the Jersey side near French Town.  Spent a lot of the summer of 71 at that place.   From the news a few weeks back I saw film which indicated you could have run a drift boat down the streets of Manayunk.  That would have been sweet.

 

If you have not had the chance to row a decked boat on some big water you might think the gunwale could roll them but,  as they start to pitch over they get more stable the higher they go.  If by chance you get caught on a big ferocious eddy line and the gunwale does go under the water, the current is likely going to take it all the way.

 

The hard outside chine cap of the framed boats can also get caught by current when on a hard ferry angel.  Chine dip is really startling the first time it happens to you. 

 

With stitch and glue construction you could have the deck and sides meet and fiber glass the intersection.  Just need to come up with an ora lock setup but, if the deck is too high it will make it difficult to push the oar handles down making for other issues.

Permalink Reply by Ron Shealer on October 3, 2011 at 12:49pm
Wow - all these PA guys coming together.  I am in State College.  20 years of kayaking as well, Yough, New, Gauley, James, Ocoee, Nantahala and a bunch of small streams.  Slowing down though and think I am going to try a s&g version of Dave Z's (another PA guy) skiff for some smoother waters.  Sean - keep us posted, anxious to see what you come up with.  We should all get together and have an east coast float event somewhere.  I hear you can get down the Pine in the spring!
Permalink Reply by John Greenleaf on October 3, 2011 at 4:30pm

Sean, I'm also a Pennsylvanian (lehigh valley area). I have a 16' traditional double ender and frequent the Lehigh, Delaware, and some other rivers. Generally, on the lehigh I stay below GlenOnoko Falls unless I'm in a cataraft. The main reason being not the size of the water (an open river dory is more than capable of drifting that water), but more so the depth. In my opinion, unless they are having substantial releases (say >1500 cfs at white haven), that is some pretty skinny water. In my opinion, a boat with decks would only make it skinnier.

 

Secondly, a smaller lighter open boat would allow access at some of the harder to reach put-ins and take outs.

 

Third, You should also check the regs for boats going through the gap - they are required to have some kind of flotation. I don't know that decking would qualify in the Park service's eyes. It is something worth checking out. If that is indeed one of your target rivers.

 

A more optimal solution is probably using flotation in an open boat. Really, the only way you'll get water over the rails is if you wreck. So its not the same scenario as in some of the big waters out west where waves are crashing over the sides and you need a self-bailer. My current muse is to build a smaller, lighter, double ender to do these upper stretches. Something small and nimble that can be equipped with floatation. Just my $0.02 - It also greatly depends on the other rivers you intend to float. John g.

 

Permalink Reply by Ron Shealer on October 3, 2011 at 12:58pm
lhedrick - awesome photo gallery.  Thanks for sharing.  You get the plascore directly from the manufacturer?
Permalink Reply by sean williamson on October 3, 2011 at 7:25pm

I had no idea there were that many eastern guys posting on this site. That gives me a lot of encouragement. A word on the lehigh. The corps of eng. has a facebook page and lets people know when they will draw down in prep for storms, and it has enabled us to float that river at levels I would have never thought possible. Were talking 5000cfs ina kayak(my personal limit in that boat) and rockport/glen onoco over 11,000cfs  R3 in my 13' raft. That high water day in the raft we had haystacks as tall as the boat is long and solid class3 a hundred yards into the trees. A lot of fun but pretty darn scary too. Everything went perfectly and its a good thing because I think if we wound up out of the boat we would have ended up in delaware on Dewey beach; end to end one hour and twenty minutes.

    Back to the boats though, what I probably need is some experience behind the oars to see how these boats behave. What I hope to do is run some on water tests with some temp bracing and oars before I actually deck the thing just to be sure that is in fact what I really need. I'll at least be getting the plywood soon and as soon as I have something to report I'll be posting with pix. Again thanks to all for your insights.

Permalink Reply by Ron Shealer on October 3, 2011 at 7:51pm

Where you you planning to get your plywood?  If there is a good supplier in your area it would be worth my drive.  I know Dave Z has been going to Ohio.  I think we have enough people in PA to put together a group float somewhere in the spring or early summer!

 

Permalink Reply by John Greenleaf on October 4, 2011 at 3:37am
I used Boulter Plywood out of MD. And a good friend used Middletown Lumber from down near harrisburg for his build. No complaints with either - good materials and service. Both are reasonable driving distance (at least close enough to save vs. delivery fees). I second the PA group float.
Permalink Reply by Ron Shealer on October 4, 2011 at 11:15am
I checked Middletown already.  I think they just had fir.  Didn't check Boulter though.  For fir I also found some at Industrial Plywood in Lewistown and Reading.  Thanks for the tip.  We should get some sort of float planned.  You have a preferred trip?
Permalink Reply by John Greenleaf on October 4, 2011 at 4:52pm

Regarding the wood - For Boulter, I bought Okoume ply and mahogany. For the shorter and less critical pieces, I used FAS lumber from some smaller mom&pop operations like Fleetwood lumber near reading. If you don't mind losing some wood to various defects in the grain, it is great and saves much $$ (not to mention some nice wobbly grain adds some character to certain elements). For long pieces like rails, this is obviously not a suitable option. 

 

Regarding the float - no real preferences though I am a fisherman that boats and that fishing thing usually comes into the equation. I guess this is the reason you'll never find me on the upper lehigh at 11,000 cfs (well, that and self preservation) - though it really does sound fun. I would always be willing to travel - have been thinking some about the PA grand canyon in spring. I don't have a ton of trips up my sleeve (just built the drifter 1.5 years ago and still exploring.  If it's Lehigh/Del, I have several floats (day & multi-day), otherwise I'm open to suggestions. Either way, it would all be good.

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