Skiff or Big Pram Build???

Hi All,

 

I have been poking around here trying to get some ideas for buiding a large river pram, or skiff for use on the Bow River up in Calgary AB, Canada. 

 

What I am hoping to build is a modern skiff with tradtional materials.The closest example of what I would be looking to buid would be a Montana Boat Builders Freestone Skiff, but with ribs, not S&G.

 

I have been in touch over email with Dave Z, and he suggested I order Roger's book, which I intend to do, but my mind is working faster than the postal system so I was hoping to ask a few questions here.  Rather than harass him I thought I would draw on the collective knowledge here.

 

1. Is it feasible to consider building a skiff with a 15' x 54" bottom dimension? (sorry I am still working on my boat terms here - prairie boys usually dont buid boats). I am assuming that that the dimesions at the oarlocks will be dictated somewhat by the flare of the boat which I am not set on.  The more room the better for me.

 

2. Regarding construction, when one is using scarf joint to create the bottom, how much can one usually expect to loose in dimesion? ie. Will joining 4 - 48" yield a 16' bottom?

 

3. Finally, if any one know of some plans that would work for what I have in mind please feel free to point me in that direction.

 

I am sure I will have more questions as I explore building a wooden boat.  I have always liked the look of traditional wood boats, but there are not many applications for them here on the east slope of the Canadian Rockies.  A well crafted wood skiff would sure be nice to break the monotony of all those glass boats & aluminum out here.  Glass is for rods, aluminum is for beer in my world.

 

Thanks,

 

Andrew 

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Permalink Reply by Eric Loudenslager on February 17, 2011 at 9:01pm

Roger's book will have plans for 14 and 16ft rapid roberts, which might fit your interest.  Check the Don Hill web site.  They have plans for a drifting pram.  One of the builders that uses this site build one and expanded the length.

 

I am not sure what you are suggesting in your scarf question "4 - 48 yield a 16 ft bottom".  You will loose 6 inches if you use a 12:1 scarf and use 1/2 plywood for the bottom.  So 2, 8' x 48" plywood panels would yield a 15'-6" half inch panel.  Side panels are usually 1/4 inch.  For those you give up 3 inches per scarf.

 

I used an 8:1 for the side panel on a s&g dory.

Permalink Reply by Andrew on February 18, 2011 at 8:42am

Thanks Eric,

 

You were able to decipher wha I was getting at regarding the scarf joints.

 

I will have a look at the boats that you suggested.  I have also been looking at some plans for some jon boats that may adapt well for what I am looking to build.

 

Andrew

Permalink Reply by AJ DeRosa on February 18, 2011 at 1:29pm

Andrew,

 

Search the forum list for prams.  Dave Z started a thread last fall and several photos were posted.  We built a 14x54 skiff style boat that I refer to as  big river pram.  We float it here on the Snake and it handles anglers fore and aft very comfortably.  It is a sit down boat, no knee braces.  There are a few images of it in the thread started by Dave.  I'll see if I can find them and post a few.

 

AJ

Permalink Reply by Andrew on February 18, 2011 at 2:37pm

What got me going along this line was Dave's build.  I am watching it closely.  I have read every thread on this forum and have picked up so much. 

 

Regarding your big river pram those were the dimensions that I was going for, even a little longer.  I have seen the pictures and it is just what I am looking to build. 

 

Could you tell me the dimensions, like  the height of the sides, bow and the transom?

 

Here the guys fish with prefer to stand.  How would a pram of that size be for stability?  My hunch is it would be pretty stable, I may be mistaked though.  If I do go ahead with the build I am going to affix some removable knee braces some how.

 

Thanks guys,

Andrew

Permalink Reply by Dave Z on February 18, 2011 at 4:36pm

Andrew-  Big flat ender.  I like it.

 

I think it would be ultra stable for standing anglers with a big flat bottom like you are thinking.

AJ's big river pram is partly the inspiration for my skiff build.   The other is Rick Finnel's Don hill river pram. 

 

Mine is an iteration of both.

 

I'm lazy so keeping a 48" bottom width suits me.  haha.    Mine is also a 2 man boat, but would work well singly as well.

 

I think the pointy ended drift boat are beautiful and timeless, but for carrying capacity, maximum interior space usage per length, you can't go wrong with the flat enders.

 

 

For what its worth, there's reason behind my plans for this boat-  low sides, easy in and out, and also there is little need to stand in it.  With the low sides, the seated front fisherman can still effectively present a fly and have a good vantage point.  I'm am thinking of two or three small local rivers that have little beyond a class I, and alot of in and out of the boat to fish the hot spots.

 

I am stealing AJ's design for having both seats on a wood rail.  For solo trips, the front seat will be left out and the rower seat moved up to the second set of oarlocks. 

 

Made transoms tonight.  ahead of schedule.

 

Andrew, you can harass me all you want about the boats.

 

Permalink Reply by Andrew on February 18, 2011 at 6:24pm

It sounds like you are in it for the same things as I am Dave.  The section of the Bow that I fish does not have any rapids to speak of, maybe a couple of class 1.  There is some skinny water in some areas which is why I am drawn to a skiff.  I am not the most graceful thing out there, so I am also looking for easy in and out.

The additional room that the skiff affords is also a positive.  I may want to do some overnighters and the extra room for gear is good.

Stability for standing is also needed for throwing streamers and hoppers.  I dont know what it is, but up here I dont recall see anyone sitting & fishing from a boat. Maybe that will change with time. 

 

I have a couple of ideas that I am thinking about which should work out nicely.

 

Andrew

Permalink Reply by Dave Z on February 18, 2011 at 7:12pm

Andrew,

 

We stand and fish but on the smaller waters during hendrickson time, you want to sit and stay lower on some of these rivers.  I've put down fish by standing up.  sit down and they rise again and again.... stand...down....

That said, I am going to steam bend a couple knee braces mounted to the rails for those other standing times.

 

I say go for it... Find plans for a 17x54 or 18 footer and chop the front off with a flat transom, lower the side height, knock the frame numbers down to 6 or so and your set..... make a few manilla folder models.

 

Permalink Reply by Andrew on February 20, 2011 at 3:58pm

Thanks Guys,

 

I am just looking around Calgary to see what types of materials are redily available.  I have sources the MGDF easily but have to look a little further about getting some material for the visible parts. 

 

I have been playing around with some designs.  I am not sure if I am on the right track but essentially what I am looking to build is a The dimension of the bottom would be 15'6", 24" stern, 36" bow.  With those dimensions I should have a pretty big rig. 

 

With those dimensions will I be fine with 6 ribs, or should I go with 7?

 

Can someone suggest a good epoxy system that is easy to work with.  The boat will not be in the water for more that 12 or so hours at a time, with the exception of the occasional overnighter.  It will be stored in my heated garage, so the elements wont be too much of an issue.  Calgary is also a very dry climate & rot is unheard of in most things. 

 

Andrew

Permalink Reply by Dave Z on February 20, 2011 at 5:16pm

Andrew- 

 

RAKA is nice epoxy.  All I use.  2:1 mix.  #127 resinand # 610 (fast) and 608 (medium fast) hardeners.  Easy to mix up small batches 2:1. 

 

6 or 7 frames?  shouldn't be a problem either way.  S&G guys have no frames, right?  haha.

 

Dry storage is most important.  What you do with the boat on the water makes little difference, but in my opinion, dry storage and out of the sun is a must.

 

Look for Marine Fir AB plywood in 1/2" or 5/8" for the bottom.   Meranti or one of the other exotics for the hull sides.  typical to use 6mm (~1/4" for sides) and 1/2"- 3/4" for transoms and bottoms.

 

I've always used CVG doug fir for frames, only because it is all I can really get out east.  You may have access to Port Orford Cedar, Sitka Spruce, Doug Fir or AK Yellow Cedar (only in my dreams here).

 

White oak for chines.  I always use 5/8"x2" stock.  For inner chines, outer chine caps, inner and outer rails.  keeps it simple.

 

Good luck with your build, id like to see your design.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Andrew on February 20, 2011 at 6:52pm

Thanks for that on the epoxy, at least I know what I am looking for as a start.

 

The Marine fir is not tough to find here.  The plan that I have in my head calls for all the ribs & most of the interior to be covered by some type of paint and then the bright work will be on the seat boxed, gunnels, and the tops and sides of the boxes & decks along the sides. 

 

I think I have the oppostie problem as you Dave.  I have access to more cedar/cyprus than anything, especially white oak.  We even have a chain of stores called the Cedar Shop.  Western Red Cedar is very common here, so I may end up using that if it is suitable.

Here is a nice pram built from WRC

Is there any harm in using cedar or DF for the chines etc. that will be under a casting deck and most likely coated with paint of something suitable?  

 

On a more humerous note, my wife came home while I was drawing out some ideas & said "You're not building a boat are you?", to which I talk her "No, I am drawing a boat". She was not ammused.

 

Andrew

Permalink Reply by Jeff S on February 20, 2011 at 9:48pm

Dave-

 

Have you ever had issues with hairline fractures along the grain when assembling CVG doug fir frames (despite taking all possible precautions)? If so, how do you typically repair? I was planning to inject some epoxy, but a second (or 3rd…) opinion would be appreciated.

 

Cheers,

 

-j

Permalink Reply by Dave Z on February 21, 2011 at 4:59am

Oooh, thats 'a pretty boat.

 

I have no experience first hand with WR cedar.  But I had some access to it, and took Doug fir instead.  I'll let the other folks speak on WRC.

 

I think you could use Doug fir for chines.  Cypress is an excellent wood, but often a bear to get nails into straight unless you really pay attention.  Its pretty, ages nice and even left unfinished is very rot resistant.  All of my bee hives are unpainted cypress.  I think I have made a full set of floor boards form 1/2" cypress.  A little on the heavy side.

 

Jeff-

Hairline crack when nailing into the frames- often, yes this happens.  I think it is because the grain structure has wildly varying hardness- the dark streaks are hard, the wood in between is soft.  The nails will often take an easy route even when pre-drilled.  What I started doing was using a #14 1 or 1-1/4" ring nail and nipping the tip off off so it is blunt.  Pre drill the shank diameter and hammer lightly, they go in straight and the blunt tip wants to stay on track.

 

To fix those inevitable cracks-only the real blatant ones- I'll mix up a small batch of epoxy and make a paste with Doug fir dust.  I'll force it into the crack and come back later to sand it flush.  The color matches exactly with the harder growth rings.  I keep alot of that sawdust handy for these kinds of repairs.  I seem to have an endless supply of it for some reason.  I get the dust form my belt sander or disc sander.  Really nice fine stuff.

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