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Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on August 5, 2009 at 8:40am

Morning Karl,
Ray and Cyrus make a great kit. Because I'm a kit guy I have to make my argument that the premium you pay for the kit is not just the materials. It is also the time to select, cut, and ship and a significant time savings for you when you do the build. By purchasing a kit you get all the materials at one time. You can avoid shipping costs because you can drive to Portland to pick it up. You are assured that all of the materials are the highest quality and it will save you abut 50% of the time to build the boat.

It is going to take you 60 to 100 hours to build the boat, another 60 to 100 hours to put on the final finish depending on the type. If you are doing a one-off build from a set of plans you can expect at least another 60 to 100 hours of time selecting and cutting your wood. Many people add a significant amount of time to that because of extra trips, extra shipping, small mistakes, etc.

For some, the true wood heads among us, that is part of the fun. Those woodies wouldn't dare let someone else have the fun of picking out just the right board for them. But for the rest, the price of the kit, in the end, works out to be a significant time savings and convenience for the kit buyer.

There is not a lot of margin for us kit builders. Once we add our labor to the cost of top of the line materials we depend on production efficiency to have any profit. Ray's kit price will pencil out if you value the time savings and efficiency of having a pro get you set up with before you get started and support you along the way.

Give Ray or Cyrus a call about plans or he might answer this string if he's not on the river.

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Permalink Reply by Greg Hatten on August 5, 2009 at 9:05am

I'd like to help you with this little project, Karl. I work for beer!! Of course, you will help with mine... which I will start immediately upon the successful launch of yours!!
GH

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Permalink Reply by Karl Mueller on August 5, 2009 at 9:47am

I see your point Randy but here's mine . . .

In addition to the aesthetic and other valuable benefits of wood construction another benefit is the opportunity to accrue materials over time as budget allows never requiring plunking down four grand at once. I don't have that money and if I did it wouldn't be the smartest move to spend it on a boat kit. My lady might kill me and I would never use the boat! jk.

I don't mean any offense but when you look at the lumber order for a sea going dory, I could probably bring it down to $1300 by purchasing random lengths and rough cut. That is a whole lot easier on the ears and the domestic bliss than 4K before you even start talking outboard, fuel tanks, downriggers, sandpaper, etc. 1300-1500 for the lumber--plus the hardware, plus the the finishing stuff, plus about 2K-3K on a motor is doable in the near term. Add another 2500 to get it in kit form and at that point, it doesn't pencil out for me. It probably does for someone with more money.

I'm sure that Ray makes a great kit--everything I've heard has been positive but in this circumstance it is best for me to go with plans. I bought a driftboat kit but for me, at this point in my life there is a big difference between a 2K kit and a 4K kit. The 4k is cost prohibitive. I don't want to be argumentative but time is what I have. What I don't have is disposable income. My income stream is so modest it wears a burka!

I'd rather wait and build a 22 foot bartender from a kit with a motor for 15K and basic electronics and trailer than 10K+ on 18 foot dory that is a bridge boat between my basic "needs" now and where I want to get in the future. Now, if I can bring it down to 8K or less now we're talking . . . .

I'm pretty sure I can get most everything I need locally. Regarding materials, I can pick out CVG fir and douglas fir marine grade ply without any trouble. I don't want sapelle or okoume-that's just how I roll. I know the benefits but I don't really care. Epoxy over fir is good enough for me. What can I say, I'm an Oregon guy and a douglas fir man and an autodidact. I value the experience and the accrual of knowledge as much as the finished product . . . ok, maybe not quite.

So, has anyone on here built a dory. I was looking at the 21' open dory from nexus. Not that I want to start right away but if anyone has any experience with ocean dories, their construction and use please chime in . . . .

and thanks for the offer Greg--I'm sure I'll take you up on it.

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Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on August 6, 2009 at 8:41am

There is no offense taken at all Karl. This is a good string for people to follow when making this decision. How deep into the processing of the parts or even the lumber is a decision that each builder has to make. I'm talking to a person now that is going to be milling lumber from a white oak tree from his yard. That is the kind of thing that makes a boat special when you use it.

Sandy and I are doing our best to get people out on the river. Any kit, ours, Ray's, Montanta
BB, create value by helping people build with confidence and get to the river quicker and still build their own boat. The one thing that we do not yet do is sell a set of plans. Look for those in the next year. Many people have asked and we are in the process.

One word of caution. There is a magic point somewhere between 20ft and 25 ft depending on the hull shape where turning the boat becomes a very big part of the process. With a 20ft dory you could likely turn the boat with three hefty friends. With a 25ft boat you will be building some type of support and cheaters to roll it over. Do some research on that because it could be a significant hidden cost between a 21ft open dory and a larger boat.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Baker on August 5, 2009 at 1:01pm

Hey Karl,
Checkout the Toleman Skiff. I got the book at the library. It looks like a great boat. The book had a ton of good building info as well.
Mike
http://www.alaska.net/~tolmanskiffs/

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Permalink Reply by Steve Sobba on August 5, 2009 at 6:13pm

Karl, I agonize with you about plans verses kit, money and wife. I went with the plans ..15 months , just past 400 hours, just turned it back upright to apply varnish to the inside and do final assembly. I was wanting to be in the water last fall. I am guessing another, I hope 50 hours but as I have found it will take 100 until I am happy with the results. Living in the middle of Kansas I have had to order and wait, work and plan ahead. I would not trade the experience but all the finishing etc, I might be close to the kit cost. Will add it all up when I get finished. I have been told I do everything the hardway. So be it. You can read the comment that I sent to Felipe G on Stitch and Glue vs. framed on this forum . Steve added note... I am building my oars... $150 in Ash will give me 3 oars when 2 cost $450 to out right purchase, then there is the trailer build ... I told you ...the hardway...maybe I will name her that. Best of sawdust to you.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Z on August 12, 2009 at 9:01pm

Karl,

I feel ya. Back when I wanted my first drifty 10 years ago, I salivated over Tatman kits. But I couldn't raise the 3500 or so to purchase one. So it was a piece by piece thing.

The most recent 16' DET I built, I literally spent under 1600 bucks on. I sold a boat, took the money and turned it around into materials. I had everything to finish the boat in three weeks. There was a lot of dog work to do-ordering, phone calls, etc.. But, hey that's part of the fun too.

I also sawn a few trees and hung them in my basement for 10 months to make a stem, oars, etc..

Good luck with your project. I look forward to seeing this thing come together.

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