Ring nails vs screws II

While reading all of your posts on building boats I notice a real preference for ring nails over screws for much of the build. The plans I have (Don Hill) only mentions the use of screws for everything. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both.
Finding a place where there are is so much knowledge and help available like this is a godsend for a newbie such as myself.
Thanks, Mark G

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Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on March 18, 2009 at 4:14pm
The old boats are built almost entirely with screws and it has worked for years so it is hard to argue to change the method.

I would guess that the now popular use of silicon bronze ring nails was propagated by Dynamite Payson and his tac-n-tape method of boat building. Dynamite is a friend of Roger Fletcher's. Perhaps Roger can fill us in on if this is actually true. I read in one of Dynamite's books "Never use a screw where a nail will do the job." As a rule I follow that advice.

Today I use ring nails in many place for different reasons. On the side panels the panel is mostly being held in place to the frame by the glue once the glue is dry. Screws and ring nails each have their compromise. With 1/4 inch panels a countersinking a screw leaves only 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch of paneling to hold the side panel against the frame cutting the holding strength by near 50%. With the ring nail you have a full 1/4 in of panel and a strong connection at the head but the ring nail is put into the end grain of the frame which is not a perfect solution for a nail.

I prefer to use silicon bronze nails for attaching plywood sides because the longer nail shank in the end grain is a stronger compromise than the countersinking of the screw. The second reason is the silicon bronze ring nails look very attractive when sanded and varnished.

I also use ring nails on the transom battens and false stem or stem batten because they match the nails on the side. Call me obsessive compulsive. That's really the only reason. There is no advantage to one over the other on the battens.

I also use ring nails to hold the guard rail as we glue it up. That is the outside rail at the shear line. I drive them only 2/3 of the way into the oak in a pilot hole. The rings hold the panel against the glue as hard as a clamp until the glue drys. this keeps me from having to use a large number of C-clamps to hold the rail in place. Once the glue is dry I snip off the excess screw and sand level with the side panel leaving a small bronze dot.

Most of the rest of the boat I use stainless steel screws, counter sink them, and fill the counter sink hole with fillet so there is no possibility of water following the screw into the wood.
Permalink Reply by Mark Griffith on March 18, 2009 at 4:53pm
Thanks Randy, you did a great job of answering my questions. Sounds like ring nails are the way to go.

Mark G
Permalink Reply by Mark Griffith on March 18, 2009 at 6:25pm
Also, what size nail do you use, and I'm guessing we drill a guide hole for all the nails. Is this right?
Permalink Reply by Dave Z on March 18, 2009 at 6:48pm
Randy,

That is interesting. The part about Ring Nails used on the sheer outer rail then snipped off. I am using Si Bronze flat head slotted #8 x 5/8" on this boat.

Ring nails are #14 1-1/4" Although I think you could go 1" with a 6mm side panel.

I have to agree, the nail heads look nice against a clean varnished hull. On an oiled boat the ring nails disappear with age.

They can be a pain in the butt though. Even with drilled pilot holes, the will sometimes still follow grain and bend or twist. One remedy for this is to snip off the point and use a pre-drilled hole. The blunt tip stays in the pilot.

I don't use glue or epoxy up my frames on the side panels. I used to, but don't anymore. I imagine there are alot of old boats out there with no glue anywhere. I simply don't do it because, gulp, I'm lazy!! I hate the cleanup associated with 5200 or Sika 291. Once the bottom is on, and the rails are on, that hull keeps its shape even if the frames were gone.

I do however glue the bottom on, stem and transom.

To be honest with you, If I were set on a painted hull, I probably would screw them on. It is easier.
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on March 18, 2009 at 7:38pm
You are on Dave about the silicon bronze ring nails being sometimes tough to manage. They are soft and need to be pre-drilled and tapped in - not hammered hard like you would a framing nail.

They do have a tendency to follow the grain of the wood so accurate drilling with the correct size bit is the key. I do think this nature of the nails is why many still use all screws.
Permalink Reply by Jesse Ronnow on March 18, 2009 at 8:13pm
Randy and Dave,

This is very interesting in deed. Sheer physics would lead one to believe that screws are the standard for strength. Now I have never seen a ring nail, so forgive me if I am off base, but the threads of a screw would seem to always be stronger. I have always kind of looked at nails as a much "speedier" solution. (nail guns)

Thank you both for your insights.

Jesse
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on March 18, 2009 at 8:45pm
Yes Jesse, if you are talking about fastening a reasonable size of wood the wood screw will be stronger. The size of 1/4 plywood isn't really that reasonable and it is countersinking the head into plywood that makes this an interesting discussion. Silicon bronze #14 ring nails have to be pre-drilled they are not a bit faster than screws. This is really anyone's choice, one is not better than the other. I just like the look of the bronze nail.

Whenever we do a boat repair we match the original.
Permalink Reply by Jesse Ronnow on March 18, 2009 at 9:34pm
Interesting stuff. I learn something new every day. I guess to give the topic the attention it deserves I will have to try the ring nails on a project soon. :)

Thanks again for sharing.

Jesse
Permalink Reply by Mike Flemming on May 20, 2011 at 8:06pm
Cannot agree more.  Silicon bronze screws are much sronger and able to hold sizable parts together very well.  Here is the website which has very good deal on silicon bronze screws: www.j2depot.com
Permalink Reply by Jason Knight on March 19, 2009 at 5:17am
Another plus for ring nails is that their length is easily modified by snipping the tip off. This becomes important when you are nailing the side to the frames with extreme angles, such as frame 9. You can shorten your nail to ensure you get a good bite into the frame but do not bust out the side of said frame... I may or may not have done that. : )
Permalink Reply by Dave Z on March 19, 2009 at 8:29am
Jason,

I will be first to admit-- I have busted through too many ring nails!

Jesse, I wouldn't worry about strength of either screws or nails on those panels. Either works well to assemble, but only one works well to disassemble- screws. Once nailed, you are nailed for good. You will not be able to pull those ring nails out. They break or twist off first.

If you ever use cedar shake son a roof, these are the same nails.
Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on March 19, 2009 at 3:22pm
Dave,

Great point about dis assembly. This is why my whole boat is screwed together and all the screws are exposed, not filled. I knew sooner or later I would need to get to them for repairs, it has been proven true in my case quite a few times.

Mike

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