Doug Fir for Seats

My old Keith Steele project seems to have doug fir for all the interior parts: seats, cross brace for knee lock, floor boards, etc. I am going to rebuild all those parts as they are not salvageable. My preference would be to use PO cedar but I am having trouble getting it. I can get some nice doug fir locally though. My questions are thus: How many of you use this lumber? It seems like it would split easily in the places where bolts go through. Any concerns there? And finally, is vertical grain or flat grain better? I like the look of vertical grain better but it seems like it would not be as stable.

Thanks, CW

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on June 1, 2016 at 12:29pm

Can you find any Alaskan Yellow Cedar? Try www.woodfinder.com perhaps they can point you to a source for one or both woods.

Rick N

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on June 1, 2016 at 12:53pm

I also question the durability of the Douglas Fir when it isn't protected with a quality finish or has surfaces exposed to water intrusion or out-of-site from easy inspection. I have been redoing my boat's furniture and have been surprised to find the issues I discovered when I took things apart. The more highly rot resistant the wood the better it will withstand moisture and the longer the time between recoating. The Woodfinders site has good info on durability of woods so you can compare.

Rick N

Permalink Reply by Mike Thomas on June 1, 2016 at 2:28pm

My .02  I used a bunch of DF in my boat. I made the frames with it, the floor boards, oars and some other stuff. Everything got epoxy and varnish. I will say it is some tough stuff. you cant break it, it just splinters. I epoxied a brace on my transom, then decided to remove it to lower and it was a battle to get it off.

Likes were its clear wood for the most part, it has a nice color and is somewhat light in weight. Its nice after its sealed well.

Dislikes were its hard to machine, like trying to plane the oar shafts, the grain is tough to work with, and trying to get the grain smooth sanding, on a curve like the top of my transom.

Permalink Reply by CWarmouth on June 1, 2016 at 4:24pm

Thank you, Rick and Mike. Good info from both. It is awesome to be able to get your input.

I did not realize it was so hard to mill.

The woodfinders comparison info is great.

Rick, (or anyone else who cares to chime in) let me give some more info and ask this... Regarding rot resistance... My boat is from the 1960s and whole thing (plywood, seats, frames, floor boards, gunnels, deck brace, etc.) are all Doug Fir. It spent it's whole life in Eugene OR stored in a earth-floored tent-like storage shed. Under those circumstances I am extremely surprised that there is hardly any rot in any of it. The top of the first frame is soft and the gunnels are soft where the oars rested and dripped on them. There are some bad spots on the rowing seat but it looks like insect intrusion. I suppose it helps that there were four different layers of paint covering it. I live in Boise where we have a super low relative humidity and the boat lives in the garage. It isn't going to be a guide boat... just a weekend warrior during the warm months. Given that info, Rick, would you still be concerned about DF for rot resistance? I plan on finishing it with boat soup.

Oh, and Mike... I have been meaning to reply and say that your boat is gorgeous. Great, great job. 

Permalink Reply by Mike Thomas on June 1, 2016 at 6:20pm

Thanks CW. On that machining, it saws easy, sands easy, planed easy through the power planer, edges routered good, end grains wanted to splinter easy with the router. But the oars for instance, trying to block plane from a square, you had to pick the right direction with the grain, it would just want to splinter the other way, and they were hard to hand sand to get smooth and round. Power hand planer and power sander worked alot better. I just got them close, the fish wont know. Overall worked out pretty good. I think in the reviews it had for rot had good points, but insects was mentioned as a weak point. Maybe that was raw wood though? I couldnt get Alaskan Yellow cedar here. Its good knowing your boat held up that many years, not bad at all :)

Permalink Reply by Mike Baker on June 1, 2016 at 6:27pm

I use Fir on all my boats (not gunnels). It actually machines just fine you just have to be very aware of the grain direction cuz it will split if given a reason especially with the router. Both of my personal boats are oiled fir inside and I have had no issues with rot.

I thought the Steele boats were all made with POC. I know Steve is using POC on the Gunnels for sure because I asked him thinking they were Fir He has a lifetime supply of beautiful POC in 20' or so lengths that I think is leftover from when his dad was building. 

Mike

Permalink Reply by CWarmouth on June 1, 2016 at 8:13pm

Mine is definitely all doug fir. I was hopeful at first that it was POC when it was all covered in paint. If it was I would be taking greater care to restore it rather than toss and make new. 

I actually took the boat to Steve's shop and had him look it over to see if he could give me a historical perspective on it, and since I was interested in restoring it, to tell me what kind of wood his dad would have used. I was assuming at the time that it was POC on the frames and the seats. He told me that day that his dad basically used whatever he had and whatever he could readily get. Sometimes it was POC and sometimes it was fir. He was super nice and acted very interested in the boat. His daughter even came to look at it and offered her own comments on it. (Such as the color: "Grandpa would have never painted one blue.) Steve spent a good two hours with me that day, showing me around the shop, giving me tips, showing me how he scarfs plywood, etc. It was quite a treat!

Another user on this forum called me with great interest when I originally (incorrectly) thought mine had POC frames and seats. He said he has owned many Keith Steele boats and has only seen one with POC interior parts. He said that they are rare birds. 

It is interesting that Steve has all that POC, and especially in 20' lengths. What a treasure! He definitely didn't show me that when I was there or I would have been begging and emptying my wallet for it. He did show me some NOS fir plywood that was clear and nicer than any I have ever seen. He said he is reserving that for special order boats for folks that are willing to pay extra for it.

Yet another user on this forum offered to sell me some Alaska Cedar but it seems we were never able to make the connection... if you are reading this, I am still interested and ready to drive to you to buy it. Please check your PMs. But no worries if you changed your mind.

Sooo... given all this feedback, I believe I will pull the trigger on the fir that I can get here in Boise.

Thanks for your help y'all.

Permalink Reply by Mike Baker on June 2, 2016 at 8:12am

Trust me EVERYONE has begged and opened there wallets for that stuff. That plywood is part of what makes those old boats worth saving.

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on June 1, 2016 at 11:27pm
The key I believe to your boats survival was the paint. If the water is refused a path the wood will last much longer!

Rick N

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