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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 30, 2009 at 10:28am

I have no answers, but a question on the temperature of the wood and the ambient air temps when you started and what did they do when the epoxy was allowed to cure? Raise or lower?

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by Dan Burr on August 30, 2009 at 4:56pm

I live in Eastern Idaho, the temps have been in the 70" to 80"s I did the work in the garage out of the sun, I was careful to not overwork the epoxy and tried to keep the coats thin. The temps drop a bit a night (into the 50's)but during the curing process it was pretty steady, there is very little humidity here. I'm baffled with this problem, the more coats I put on the deeper the pits become and it almost seems like pin holes right to the wood. Short of filling them with some kind of filler I don't know how to overcome the problem.

thanks,

Dan

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 30, 2009 at 8:33pm

Dan, I don't have experience with the fish eye problem you have, however I knew I had seen something about it somewhere. So I searched the web and found it. I will paste the response here that I found.

Causes of Surface Fish Eye - a) Fish eyes are commonly reported when applying the second coat of a solvent-free epoxy on to a sanded surface. Remaining by-product and insufficient sanding of the first coat are very common causes. Sanding wet achieves by-product removal and gives a good key. When sanding dry it is especially important to remove by-product as it will only clog the sand paper. Use 80-120 grit.
b) If the work has been cleaned down with solvent immediately before recoating epoxy or after sanding bare wood then some solvent may have remained on the surface. Acetone or cellulose thinners are not as good as cleaning materials because they may be contaminated and their use sometimes leads to problems.
c) Check whether cleaning rag was contaminated with other types of solvent. It is likely that if other solvents were used previously, the customer may have inadvertently used one such as this to clean the surface.
d) If the work was wiped down with White Spirit - this is really bad news as it means that epoxy then cannot be used unless all traces are removed, which is almost impossible.
e) Wrong resin-hardener mix ratio can also give the same symptoms in some cases.
f) Traces of contaminant in the atmosphere - e.g. mould release agent aerosols, wax polishes, etc.
g) Some types of pigment dispersed in epoxy resin, may make the problem worse especially when coating is applied in a thin film.
h) Direct heat from the sun may also make problem worse.
i) Syringes can cause this problem if not cleaned out first. This is quite a common cause. Mixing cups or pumps do not have any surface contaminants.

I hope that this helps.

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by Steve Sobba on August 31, 2009 at 5:32am

Dan, I have had this problem also on a few pieces, figured it was a contamination. I have been using System 3 clear coat, 2 coats before appling their Spar urethane. Seemed to have the problem on my first coat of urethane but has come out with sanding. Will amine blush from epoxy cause this? S3 clear coat is not suppose to have that ,amine blush) but I did wipe the epoxy coat after sanding with water. used mineral spirits between urethane coats. I did here that acetone was recycled and had contaminates . I have heard of running a heat gun over freshly laid coats will rid the air bubbles but I don't know about this fish eye problem. I have used one of those high intesity work lights that put out some heat directed on the site. I have had to deal with high temps. and humidity all summer. so far I am getting there...seem to have good adhesion... I don't really know . Steve Sobba

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Permalink Reply by Dan Burr on August 31, 2009 at 6:49am

Thanks Rick and Steve,
I'm sure I am doing something wrong but it's not on the list you provided I am following my west system instructions ( maybe I should read them again) I washed off the blush then I wet sanded the crap out of the first coat because of the bumps and pits, I wiped it all down with warm water and a clean cloth and blew off any remaining dust,I did not use any solvents to wipe it with my instructions said to use water. I am wondering about contamination of some sort, I'm sure just the idea of me handling epoxy contaminated it, The same thing happened to me last year applying spar varnish to plywood, I must be cursed...
thanks again for your help, I will go back to the instruction manual.

Dan

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Permalink Reply by Les Kirk on August 31, 2009 at 8:00am

I remember when building rods that there was a warning that some plastic containers manufacturers used silicon as a mold release agent and that could cause fish eyes in epoxy finish.

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Permalink Reply by Dan Burr on August 31, 2009 at 8:07am

Really? I am using a Cool whip container to mix the epoxy in, maybe this is one of them.
What do you use, or do you have a recommendation?

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Permalink Reply by Les Kirk on August 31, 2009 at 9:05am

I used some (slightly) reusable mixing containers from Raka and some drink cups. I just pay attention the first time I use something different and change if there is any doubt. I am very hesitant to use something like margarine or topping containers. Could be just superstistion but I don't walk under any black cats either.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Sobba on August 31, 2009 at 9:24am

Dan, when you said you blew off the remaining dust, was that with air compressor, does it have a filter to catch water and oil? some where I read something about that caution. My wife is at work so I sanded my fly deck, brace and knee horns in the shop and put paper on the dining room table for final coat and brush coated them in a controlled setting. SHHHH! Will get them out before she comes home. Steve

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Permalink Reply by Dan Burr on August 31, 2009 at 9:35am

I don't think the compressor has a filter, I am going to be very careful on the next coat.
Be careful to not spill any varnish on the table or carpet, I have done similar things when my wife was out...
This afternoon I am going to sand again and try one more coat of epoxy to fill in the pits before I varnish the wood, wish me good luck.

Dan

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 31, 2009 at 10:14am

Dan, whenever I try to do a drawing it comes out like some junior high student had done it. As hard as I try to do other things I end up with "fish eyes" and other issues. So don't feel all alone. I have seen your posters for the Wooden Boat Festivals and know that you have great skill at that. You have a wonderful gift and ability to do art and I am glad I have been able to see and share that. So don't consider yourself too cursed! Yes, I wish you luck on the future epoxy applications. Just think of all the things that you have learned and have help us learn!

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by Dan Burr on August 31, 2009 at 11:09am

Thanks Rick I appreciate that you like my poster, take a look at my site as well danburr.com , I think you will like the fishing and sporting art section. Occasionally I use a wooden boat in my illustrations. I wish I was better at this epoxy thing, I just want the wood on my boat to be protected for a long time from the water, I guess close enough will have to be close enough on the finish.

off to sand,

Dan

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