Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on March 20, 2009 at 11:33am

From the little I have done so far if you can build a bamboo fly rod you can build a great drift boat. Welcome to the site. Look over some of the past discussions and gain some knowledge. Do you have any pictures of your "grass" work.

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by Felipe G. Ch. on March 20, 2009 at 11:56am

Ok, thanks for your answer Rick!

I´ll try to post some pics of my rods:

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Permalink Reply by Mike Dearing on March 20, 2009 at 12:40pm

Wow Felipe beautiful rods!

As to which kind of boat to build, I think it comes down to which one more visually appeals to you than the actual way they are built. If you like the more traditional look, go for the framed boat, if the more modern frame less look catches your eye then go that route. They both have their merits, framed boats are lighter and easier to build, but I think the S&G boats are probably more durable cause of all the glass involved.

Mike

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Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on March 20, 2009 at 8:19pm

Awesome photos.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on March 21, 2009 at 9:17am

Felipe, thanks for the pictures of the fine rods. I knew your question would open a healthy debate that is beneficial to all. In whitewater open single canoes and kayaks you learn to use the chine to your advantage to make turns into small eddies. So when you are expanding your boating horizons you experiment with ferry angles, paddles braces, lean angles and such to use the waters currents to your advantage. While learning whitewater boating isn't the subject of this forum, it is certainly worthwhile to learn from others experiences as to how different boat designs perform and how subtle changes can effect your experience on the river.

As mentioned below we don't know what kind of water you plan to row in. I would love to spend some time exploring with you and trying out your fine bamboo rods. Can you share with us some of the sense of your fishing experiences in Argentina?

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by Jesse Ronnow on March 21, 2009 at 9:36pm

Felipe,

Those are some beautiful fly rods. Kudos. The one thing that I would add to the discussion is the the framed boats seem to be more easily maintained for extend periods of time (like say 25 years). Because of the "modular" construction of a framed boat you really can repair bits and pieces through out the boat. This of course assumes that you will be wanting to keep a boat for that long. I know that there are some guys on this site and others, that would argue my point to the S&G end of the spectrum, but that's the way I see it. Anyway, which ever you go with, you have found the right place for great feedback from some guys that really know what they are doing.

Good Luck,

Jesse

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Permalink Reply by Jon Carter on March 20, 2009 at 12:38pm

I chose a S & G over a framed boat for two reasons. One was cost - I was having a difficult time accessing the wood I needed here in Boise (it was even a problem with S & G) so I would have needed to access my wood from the coast. I felt I didn't want to spend the money on a kit (not necessarily the best decision) and I wanted to build a boat that would fit on top my truck rack. Most of the ribbed boats and in fact S & G designs were too wide at the gunwales. I love my new little boat but am already thinking about a bigger one - soooo I will get to revisit the very question you are wrestling with. My guess is that there isn't a wrong decision and you can for sure build whichever you decide on considering the work you did on your rod. Good luck - Jon

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Permalink Reply by Dave Z on March 20, 2009 at 12:57pm

Nice rods.

S&G can be sweet boats. they are fiberglass wood core boats. Pretty tough and you can get a roomy interior.

It's all personal taste. I like the looks of frames and am a sucker for tradition. I like nice, tight jointery work, and in a framer, you get alot of it. Jason Cajune over there ar montana boatbuilder smakes sweeeet S&G boats. He is a true artist.

S&G guys tell me its easier to do S&G cause you can hide your mistakes with fillets, glass and paint!

You can also build a framed boat with cheap pine frames. glass it outside, then pound out the frames, glass it inside and you have the same thing.

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Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on March 20, 2009 at 8:11pm

There is one major difference that hasn't yet been brought up. The chine area.

S&G boat builders traditionally treat the chine area similar to fiberglass builders. They support the inside chine log area with a strong fillet and then round and glass the outside chine edge to strengthen and protect the bottom to side joint. Traditionally they leave off the chine batten and protect the area with a strong build up of epoxy and glass. To help deflect damage from running into rocks this area is rounded over. The more rounded over it is the more deflection of energy during a collision. This combination of wood glass and epoxy produces a very clean looking interior without frames.

Framed boat builders protect the end grain of the bottom and the entire chine joint with the chine batten. The inside chine log of the boat holds the frames stiff in relation to each other and is the foundation to attach the sides bottom and outside chine batten. This combination of frame, chine log, chine batten produces a stiff lightweight boat.

Chine battens do two things for a boat.

1. They strengthen the chine area to be able to take big hits on the river without stream side repairs. Obviously you can hit rocks in any boat with force that will break the boat no matter what it is made of. However a 1-1/2 inch thick chine (1/2 inside log-1/4plywood-1/2 in outside chine batten + 1/4 chine protection of UHMW or stainless half round tube) supported by a frame every 15inches or so is a very tough and proven combination.

2. They help the boat track in white water and still water. There is a world of difference in perceived control between a boat with great tracking ability and one that side slips in the water. A boat with a sharp chine will allow you to "cut an edge" much the same as skiing. Imagine that you are at a ferry angle 45% to the current and rowing to cross the river. As you row you build momentum across the river. When you want to stop the cross river movement all you have to do is spin the boat to straight with the current and the cross current momentum is stopped by the sharp chine edge. If the chine edge was rounded your cross river momentum would stop slower as the water slides under the chine. The more rounded the chine area the more side-slip you get.

This is boat building... there is always a compromise. The price to pay for the chine batten and the tight feel of control in swift water is chine dip. When you edge into a powerful eddy running against the current and 1/2 of the boat is in river current and the other 1/2 is in the eddy current, the slower eddy current will cut a strong edge on the chine. This is sometimes so strong that your boat will dip on the eddy side enough to make you want to be very careful. The batten free boat that does more side-slipping will also side-slip into eddies without the dramatic chine dip.

I'm really not a purest about S&G vs framed building. At Tatman's we now build the chine and chine batten area with Dynamite Payson's "tack-n-tape" method. We round over the bottom just enough to insure the chine edge can accept fiberglass tape and epoxy. We use a 3" 6oz tape and place it on the bottom and up the sides just far enough to fit under the chine batten. Then the batten is attached with fasteners and 3M5200. The small V that is left between the rounded bottom and the flat chine edge is filled with fillet. From there the boat gets a 20oz tri-axel bottom or a good soaking of epoxy and a UHMW bottom depending on the owners wishes.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Z on March 21, 2009 at 7:11am

Nice discussion Randy.

In the tack-n-tape method, do you worry about fasteners allowing water in behind your glassed bottom edge? If I understand correctly, you are drilling through the already glassed area under the chine batten. I recall hearing you use ring nails here instead of screws.

I've experienced chine dip once, and was like "this is what they mean!" -but I think its one of those things that is always the beg debate point between S&G and framed. I think once you get a feel for how your boat acts in the water, you can get it to respond how you want with a little experience. Thanks for the unbiased explanation, that was really great.

One more difference in S&G- prepare to sand epoxy- ALOT!

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Permalink Reply by Greg Hatten on March 21, 2009 at 7:38am

Yup... very well described, Randy. The first time I experienced "chine dip" was on the McKenzie just down from your place... I didn't know what it was but it scared the crap out of me... I thought I was going to lose the boat. Thanks for explaining the dynamics and the differences between boats.
GH

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Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on March 21, 2009 at 8:41am

You bring up an important point Dave, In Dynamite's tack-n-tape method he uses an inside structural piece to tack a panel to and then glasses over the nail then sand and paint. He doesn't tack through the tape.

After some experimentation we think we have the best compromise for the traditional McKenzie style boat chine area. We now drill a pilot hole through the glass, use silicon bronze ring nails with a liberal amount of 3M5200 under the chine. We want the flexible "death paste" bond of 3M 5200 because it is so tough. It never gives up and has to be cut and sanded off... which is exactly how we remove this chine.

So I am trusting the flexible polyurethane adhesive to keep water from getting under the glass.

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