Which hull design

Brad,

I was wondering what hull you would choose if you had the choice?

To start I am posting this to all member of the group so they may also read your views.  As a person who has run the grand many times as a guide with 4 or 5 people in the boat I can see many reasons you and commercial companies choose the Briggs design.

What I was wonder was what you would choose for yourself.  After rowing and building a few boats, I like 16 footers.  Unlike many I want my boats to be as light as I can build them while keeping them solid.  I also don't like a boat which has too long of a flat spot.  For me they react too slowly.  I like a boat which spins more quickly but not so quick that a lateral hit will kick it around.  I hope to sell one of my boats at some point after my next Grand trip in a few weeks so I can build another.  

Having been around boat building all my life, I don't work completely from plans.  I use them as a starting point and then make changes with the idea of tuning the way the boat behaves to my requirements.  My plan is something like a 16 foot double ender with transom but with a little less rocker for about 6 foot near center.  Since I will add a transom dropping the bottom a bit I would curve the last 3 feet back up an inch or two to get the stern back to the original double ender line.

What do you row when you are not working?

This is really a discussion for all and I look forward to everyones input.

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Permalink Reply by Brad Dimock on March 13, 2010 at 9:11pm
Several years ago I ran a trip with Martin Litton, who was 82 at the time. I was rowing Cataract, my old Briggs, which Martin had given me in '87 when he sold the company and Cataract, already 16 years old, was rotten and in serious need of some serious lovin.' I'd wrecked and rebuilt her by this time. Martin was rowing a Don Hill which he'd had Hill custom build--the Diablo Canyon--it was oversized with the gunwales raised a few inches so it was very difficult to row. It was a beast. The thing was so tall it was hard to reach all the way to the bottom of the hatches to get a beer, and Martin could not reach far enough into the hatches to bail it, so it ran pretty heavy. Regardless, Martin loved the boat. He rowed up along side me, peered down at me in my Briggs for a while, and said, "Don't you feel kind of silly in that little thing?"
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on March 14, 2010 at 12:11am
Everyone, too much great information. I can see the river clearly now. I need 3 boats at least which make me one short at this time. After doing a few trips down Deso in October and many late season fishing trips through Red Creek rapid below Flaming George I don't see myself running a Briggs in low late season water. Last year with Deso running at about 1800 I left my boat at home and rode as a passenger in a raft. At times 9 foot oars at Red Creek are too long. From the great photos posted I can see the advantage of a longer straight tracking boat. Since permits for the big water spring runs are getting harder to get each year it seems a big boat might not get much use. No sure I will ever get to make a run at really big water. While I am a good boater, I'm not that good but, I could see myself giving it a shot. I have my doubts that we will ever see big flows in the Grand ever again. We have only had one big water year in Cat in the last 10. 1983 - 1984 may have been something which will never happen again. Two years ago we had a run on the Yampa in late May. We launched at around 18000. The chances of ever getting a permit for late May in a big water year are not very high. That may have been my one and only chance and I screwed up the run at warm springs. I survived but it wasn't my best work and it was most likely a once in a lifetime shot.

As for options, I have a friend who runs a 2 year old Rogue with the funky cut down transom for a motor. Built from Rogers plans. As an engineer I am normally dialed into function over visual appeal but, there is something about the look of that boat which just doesn't work for me. How can I say this discretely? I find them just too ugly but, that's just me.

A friend has a 16 decked Tatman. I have been along on trips many time with that boat and I like it. My only issue with that boat is the frames, plywood bulkheads and deck and 1/2 inch bottom make it very heavy. Last October we ran 5 wooden boats from below West Water down to Moab. It was the first time I saw Tom's new GEM. We had one boat that was a 12 footer and the longest was around 17. Kyle Fry had his replica of the Suzy Too. That boat was a straight tracker and not to my liking in general. But I can see it's use on some waters. Kyle will be joining us in 2 week for our run down the Grand. His dad Lincoln had his new boat the Canyon Wren on the trip. That was my favorite boat. Perhaps 17 foot with just the right amount of rocker. Much more maneuverable which I like.

While I love history and seeing Tom's new boat and getting to row it a bit, I will pass on the opportunity to row (if that's the correct term) a scow. I would like to watch someone else do it though.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on March 14, 2010 at 9:33am
Those images from Horn are Crazy. The first time I went through Horn the person at the oars didn't make it left. We got stuffed by a wave which sent us right and into the big rock from image 1. Flow was around 10k.

The next year I got to do it again. After entering right of the right horn. I was river left in about 4 pulls. I want no part of the stuff on the right side of that run. Last year I did the same but was a bit late. Had a safe run but not as far left. One of our crew went big in an 18 foot SOTAR just left of the big stuff.

Not crazy about the idea of running 3 weeks from now at 6k. Hope we can time the flow and catch the hi water of the day which we are hoping will be around 10.
Permalink Reply by Kelly Neu on March 14, 2010 at 10:22am
ooh. 6K? I've never run that low. I've been on 8k flows a couple times and it was pretty smooth sailing. I think we waited for water at crystal and lava but that was about it. Sometimes when the flows get low they keep the cfs consistant, so no dam tides, pretty nice. I'm psyched for you though!! Have a wonderful trip. Are you rowing the beautiful Carnage?

Horn Creek is always an interesting ride. I've seen a dory not make the pull left and have a HUGE ride down the right. They made it after nearly getting endo'd. One time, I was a passenger on a raft when the guy rowing just tweeked out and kept pulling left. We barreled into the left wall and stayed pancaked for awhile (probably 2 minutes). All kinds of spooky things were happening in that eddy.

In the photo, I was a passenger. When I fell out, I got suction-cupped to the upside down deck... it was weird. It took some improvisation to get outta there. When I finally popped up I got a quick view of the boat as it smashed into the left wall. It pancaked then scraped along the wall (with someone between the boat and the wall). They ended up being o kay... kind of. Probably the scariest thing I've ever seen. So right where all that current rips past the left wall was where I popped up and then was immediately sucked down into some crazy vortex. It was awesome! In a split second I was transported waaay down the river. It felt like I was really shallow but just cruising horizontally down stream fast. When I popped up, people were shocked, and were saying how the heck did you get here!

Also saw the aftermath of a dory from another trip (the Pima) who made the trip down Horn Creek's right side as you described... it was in two pieces on the beach above granite. It was a little erie, as there were no people and just a grave marker for the boat. We seriously considered putting it back together and taking it with us but we didn't in fear of some kind breech in river etiquette. We should have though, because while laying over at bass camp a baby J went by us with the Pima on board... it had been sawed into pieces. I swear I saw a tear sneak out of one of our boat builder's eyes. R.I.P. Pima. (It was a pretty boat with rainbow wood gunwales)
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on March 14, 2010 at 10:43am
Well, not sure I needed to hear about a dory in 2 pieces found above granite but, that's part of it all and something to remember if everyone is safe.

Yes, Carnage is the boat I'm taking. My friend Jeremy's boat "desolation" is build from the same plans and he is on the trip also. They are small at 14-6 so it's going to be interesting. We also have a 16 foot tatman and a replica of the suzytoo/music temple build by Kyle Fry.

Can't wait. I figure my boat is already 10 years. If I destroy it and everyone is safe that will be ok and then I get to build another. Ain't life grand sometimes.

L
Permalink Reply by Jeremy Christensen on March 14, 2010 at 2:06pm
On my first trip through the Grand we ran into a group of DORIES guides on a private trip, Duffy & OC Dale, and some other characters. OC was rowing his Derald Stewart built Alpheca dory, a 14.5' high side. I was in the process of building my boat at the time, and wasn't sure if anyone took boats that size through the Grand Canyon. But if that's the boat OC chooses to row when he isn't guiding, it must be OK.

I have been thrilled by how my boat handles in big water thus far. Larry is incorrect, when we launched on the Yampa it had just peaked at 27k, we ran Warm Springs at about 18k.

I'm sure I will feel insignificant staring down the V wave in my 15'er, but isn't feeling insignificant sort of the point?
Permalink Reply by Kelly Neu on March 14, 2010 at 5:07pm
I always thought it would be pretty fun to row a 14' dory down there. You could maybe catch some air off of the 2nd wave in fishtail rapid!

I'll be waiting for the report. Have fun, be safe and let the stories begin.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on March 15, 2010 at 1:48pm
Kelly,

I just looked at the images of your project.

Did you paint the sucker? What a finish. You must have put in 500 hours of finish sanding. It looks like glass. I would hang it on wall somewhere.

Nice work.
Permalink Reply by Kelly Neu on March 15, 2010 at 8:06pm
Yeah, I painted it myself. Its my first try ever painting anything... when you give a close look it shows. I sprayed auto paint so the clear coat makes it look pretty slick. I've yet to do any buffing.

Just found out I might get to do a fall Grand trip... this season I'll try to ding it up a bit before I take a nice shiny new boat down there... thats gotta be back luck.

The painting was a lot of fun!! After I shot the boat I was looking everywhere for things to paint. If my car was cleaner I would have painted it too.

On my blog http://kellyneu.blogspot.com/ the painting is day 84 & 85.
Permalink Reply by Brad Dimock on March 14, 2010 at 9:52pm
I doubt you'll see the water that low unless you run at midnight. The daily high hits Horn Creek around mid-day, so you should see low teens. Regardless, the right-to-left run actually gets easier the lower the water gets. Just scarier. The trick is to KEEP ROWING. So many folks tuck in behind the right horn and figure they've got it made. They let 'er spin and go right straight into the godawful guts of Horn. Don't do that--take another half dozen hard strokes left.

The Bureau still has not decided what they're doing in April--stay tuned. But it will likely be the same thing we've had in spring and fall the last several years, which is an average of about 10,000. I'll be launching in my old Briggs on April 14.

We've run the Briggs freighters at steady 8k many times with no problem, and that's with a commercial overload. There's some big rockpiles in Hance, Dubendorff and other spots, but you can miss them. There's a good line everywhere.

I'm reminded of a story I heard in Maine. My girlfriend Lora went out lobstering one morning with old Buddy (now deceased). It was very low tide and Lora was amazed at how Buddy was nonchalantly zooming through the treacherous shallows of Lobster Gut. She asked Buddy how he knew where all the rocks were. "Honey," he said in his thick Maine accent. "You don't need to know whe-ah [where] the rocks ahh [are]. You need to know whe-ah they ahhhn't.
Permalink Reply by Tom Martin on March 15, 2010 at 7:07pm
Hi Brad, BOR posted April flows a week or so ago. Same as March, 6k to 12k. Details are at: http://www.rrfw.org/node/541

Hi Jeremy, your post about feeling small in a big world is a good one. As i get older, rowing smaller lighter boats is becoming a lot more fun. Yes, big boats fully loaded have a bit better margin when i goof up, but there are a few things to consider...like you folks will be on 6 to 12K. There may be a lot of wind. A littler boat may just actually be a better boat for the river conditions you are going to find.

In thinking about this, the "funnest" boat i have ever run in GC has been a shredder. Three of us made a rockin "paddleboat" team. We flipped when we went for the guts of it mostly just to cool off, and were able to zip around what we didn't want to hit if we didn't want to hit it. My point is bigger is not always better, even in big big water.

You all have a Great Trip!! yours, t
Permalink Reply by Brad Dimock on March 15, 2010 at 8:00pm
Indeed. I do like bigger boats on bigger water, but this looks like littler water, unless the Bureau decides it rains too much in the next couple weeks. So it looks like, as I said, low teens at Horn and Hance. Attached is the hydrograph for Phantom this month. Note the mid-day highs. Should be plenty fun. And Tom is right. April is known for a preponderence of wind. Bring a daggerboard and a sail!

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