Welcome Jim,
It will be fun to see photos of the big water and the canyons. I'm looking forward to it.

Hi Jim, Thanks for the note and Pics. Yeah, it would be nice to cross paths/eddy out one of these years. Nice, looking lines on your craft-there, Matey! Cheers, Andy

I'll most likely do the April, June and Sept. Trips for GCE. We're also doing a private, end of Feb. I've lots of boat work between now and then, tho'.
Andy

Jim,
Thanks for the note. We ran the MF at all levels from Boundary Creek. When the water got around 2ft. or so we would run the boats empty to Indian Creek and fly the people into there. Best levels are from 41/2 to a little under 3 feet. We ran loaded from Boundary Creek at about 2.5 feet but you were hitting constantly til you got to Pistol Creek. The Grand Canyon Dories used to run there once in a while at higher levels. With your Briggs I would imagine you could handle close to 5 feet or a little over. I am not really familiar with the design.

The last few years I was over there were low water years and it was a bugger.

Herb

Jim, I rowed a 18 foot raft through the grand canyon in 1991. It was incredible, but getting a permit is so tough. Also, most of the folks on the blog are fishermen on class 3 or smaller rapids. Its great to get input about big whitewater. My first trip will probably be through cataract canyon. I'd love to go the full lenght of the middle fork of the salmon and main salmon together. Also Hells Canyon, I once just showed up at the put in there and got invited on a trip with my kayak, but I didn't have the time.

I'd love to talk by phone. I'll call you on my nickel if you give me a number.
Also, I' looking for a person to 'loan' my dory to out west for storage exchange, I don''t intend to drive it back and forth form NH.

Den

Hi Jim,

I can't thank you enough for the offer. I am already committed to a May 8 launch this season.


I will also be helping another non-boater put together a trip in March 2010. I have had some special luck in the last 4 years. This year I am taking my 14 footer. A bit small but I'm going to give it a run. For 2010 I think I am going to build a new 16 footer all out of honeycomb and kevlar.

I currently have a new 16 foot fly fishing platform under construction. Beats working.

------

I keep trying but can't seem to land a permit myself. Friends and I have been talking about and all dory trip one day. I'v got your name on the list along with Jeff Peak and the rest of us here in Salt Lake.

If you need another dory you could contact Dave Inskeep of Salt Lake.

skeepd@msn.com

He has a 16 foot framed Tatman design he built which has thousands of mile on it. I have been down the Grand with him the last 2 years. Great person and a solid and safe boater

Thanks again.

Larry

Hi Jim,

I think we have had about 6 -7 feet of snow here in the last 10 day. Had a warm spell for about 3 weeks and it started looking like winter was going away early and not a big snow year up to that point. The last snows have brought things back up closer to normal.

As for the Green. My boat was originally built specifically for fly fishing the Green below the dam before I decked it over. I run through Red Creek many times each season. There is a right and left run as boulders take up the center of the river. Flows of 1100 plus make the left run fairly straight forward. A drift boat is one thing but a big heavy 17 foot Briggs boat would be hard to get through Red Creek at 850.

The rapid is close to ½ mile long but, only the entry and first 100 yards can be the real challenge.

The right side run has more water but also comes with the most risk. If you screw up and sink the boat it will be no easy task to get to it. I have made the right run a few times. As an experienced boater you will have the skill to run the right side. The move is a bit tricky to describe. There is a fast wave train which runs along a cliff. The flow pushes a bit left toward a large boulder on the left. Its about 75 yards or so down. The guides have their passengers walk around. They back haul trying to stay left. As they approach the large boulder they continue to pull left and head straight for it. The water pillows up allowing them to make a move and slide through a slot back to river left to pick up their passengers. I would not recommend the right side run until you watch one of the guides make the move. I am sure you can do it but, it will help to see the line. Guides start hitting Red Creek around 12:00.

The left run is a straight shot but, it is a narrow run and at places you will need to lift your oars up over the rocks. The low morning flow of 850 is the problem. When you scout the run walk down river and at the end of the difficult section there is a rock about 5 feet a round just under the water. It makes a poor over, it's perhaps 100 yards down and it's at the point were things start to open up. Stay in the center of the flow and pull when you can get your oars in the water. Oars over 9 foot six in this section start to get in the way. This is the rock which get everyone. Things open up just after this rock so I am sure you will have no trouble spotting it. At 1100 plus you can run over it but, at 850 it will spin you. The key is to control your speed with as many pulls as you can get. A strong rower can pull hard as they approach this poor over and slid right of it. If you get pushed left of it you will get through safely but wind up on shore and the flow pushes left. After that spot it's a long run of fast water. Work back river right for the rest of the run. The river starts to flatten out below Red Creek. I have helped push rafts of that rock so the left run keeps people close to shore access and help.

Power generation will often lift the flow up to 1100 or 1200 and the water gets to Red Creek around 1:00.

Shuttles down to Indian Crossing from the Dam or Little hole are now 100 bucks and the first come first server camping is 12.00 a night. The sign up board is down at little hole.


All the nice camps are above Red Creek. Above the rapid is about 1 mile of flat water which can be some good fishing around dark and you can row back up river easily. My favorite camp is river right just above the rapid. It's called Pugmire Pocket. I always try to get that camp and stay 2 nights. Fish the flat water after dinner. The next day row down to Red Creek and spend the day wading Red Creek. It has a lots of big strong browns and no one fishes it. The guides just blow through.

I have a Deso trip in the middle of April and the Grand in May. After that when I go over to the Green to fish I will drop you a line. There is camping at the Indian Crossing take out. We often drop the boat at the dam the night before. Then go down to IC for the night. I have a tandem bar and can tow 2 boats back up to the dam after the float.

Yes, I have been down the left side at 850 at least 20 times. You just need to spot the rock I am taking about and slide to the right of it. The you are through and can start working right for the rest of the run. With my decked boat and camping gear it sits lower in the water now and I still get through at 850 on the left just fine.

Years ago on my first time I high sided on the rock and did a spin. I also got a black eye 200 yards below that when I was trying to ferry left and caught an oar when I wasn't paying attention and got punched. I had not excuse for that mistake.

Like they say, it ain't over till it's over.

forgot I didn't have recent pics up on this board...yes, the boat is practically finished, a couple finishing touches remain. pics:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jwpeak2001peak/Boat#5329547972048551986

what do you think about the "flatness"?

I built from some plans of Roger Fletcher's. its a double ended version of the original Briggs boat. there is a flat section in the middle, as there should be, but theres not as much rocker, especially in the bow, as I'd like. I think when I took the hull off the forms and set it on the floor, I could/should have done a better job of supporting the very front and back instead of letting the entire boat rest on that flat spot in the middle...too bad so sad, can't wait to go float. Colorado is rising, maybe Ruby/Horsethief tomorrow?

"if I get a participant cancellation on the July Grand, come with us and let's give it a test run on some big water"

don't tease me like that...

Jim,

Beautiful boats you have!

Just signed up on the WBP site, I am in planning stages of a Briggs style boat. I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction regarding accessories and hardware for:

Scuppers, plumbing for self-bailing design, hatch latches, hatch sealing designs that actually work and floor heights above water lines and any other helpful information that I would otherwise make mistakes when building...

Regards,

Robb

Hi Jim,

Every time I get back from a run down the Grand it seems to take the rest of the summer to recover from the fact that it's over. Had a great time.

We had a person drop out due to an injury so my dory stayed home and I took a friends raft so I could haul more stuff. My friend took my dory on a Deso trip while I was on the Colorado. The had over 20000 CFS and big fun at Joe Hutch rapid.

I have another Grand trip next March so I hope to take it on that trip.

I am now back to work trying to get my new 16 foot fishing drift boat done. I also never got my old boat painted when I put on the new deck. I already have a bit of UV damage so, I am trying to get it repaired and painted this week. If I can get the paint done by next Sunday I might be able to make it over to the Green. Another dory builder and I were hoping to get over there in the next week or so. I will get back to you later in the week after I see how far I get with the paint project.

Larry

That rowers area is a tough issue.

My friend Dave has a 16 foot decked Tatman. The seat is the rear hatch lid. I can hardly row that boat sitting up that high. When I try to lift the oars out of the water my knees get in the way. I have big trouble getting the oars our of the water. Dave is a big guy also and he rows it without any difficulty at all. His boat has been down the Grand twice and should be going with us next March. Jeremy another builder has a boat like mine but with the same rowing setup as Dave and I have the same issue in his boat.

When I reworked my boat I built a rope seat which is a few inches lower and slides forward and back on rails glued to the inside of the box.

My new boat is looking real nice. Since I don't have a job any longer I hope to sell it as son as possible and keep building. Hope to make it into a retirement business. Beats sitting at a desk .

yours is the second fall trip I'll have to decline...I work in the Public School system, and taking three weeks off is seriously frowned upon...thanks so much for thinking of me though...and if you need a place to crash en route, I'm just off the freeway and would love to see your boat!

Hey Jim, Congrats on scoring the Oct. Grand Trip, you lucky Bastard!
Let me know which "low water Rapidos" of concern you have and I'll give you my 2cts. worth.
Off the cuff:
Rt. to Left @ Horn Ck.
Left @ Crystal
Rt.@ Lava (in p.m.)
Rt. (not far Rt.) @ Dubbie.
Left (Always) @ Upset
Are you going to South Cove? (Pierce Ferry Rapid is now quite huge).
I'll give you more goary details if you wish, just let me know here.
Cheers, Andy

Hi Jim,

Many of my friends have already down the Grand this season and a few more have trips planned for Sept and Dec.

Many of my boating friends are in their 20s and are feeling the squeeze of our economic events are holding back on spending and time.

I am helping a friend put a trip together for next March 28. We have people but are a bit jammed up on boats. I still need to find 2 more boats to cove the people we already have. Any interest?

If I come up with anyone who is looking for a fall trip I will refer them to you.

Larry

I did Deso last Oct at 2300.

No problem with one exception which is Joe Hutch. Aug of 2008 Joe Hutch canyon flooded and choked the river off. At high water it's now a about a class IV. The entry is not a problem but you get moving real quick. After the entry the river is filled with rock. Last fall there was a right and left channel to run but, the current is pushing you right down river center. I got through on the right side last year Okay. But one member of our trip didn't get the move and he put his new Rouge boat into the rocks. We had to fix a hole in the side before we could continue.

A few weeks ago he put a hole in the bottom of the same boat at the same spot. As soon as you get past the entry you need try to start digging and slow down. I have a Sept 12 launch and plan on taking my boat. It's wood, if I put a hole in we fix it and float on.

I would also say the fellow who went into the rocks is a very good boater, but he has many years of big water runs down Cataract where he is on the oars full speed. I don't know if he has made the adjustment to his dory yet. He also ran Joe Hutch last spring and 25000 CFS which is more his thing. He pounds bit water with no trouble.

If the flow holds 2300 I would go for it. Just make sure you stop and take a look at Joe Hutch. Wire Fence, Chandler, Three Fords and Coal Creek get boney but are not trouble.

Deso is very nice in September.

My boat is a 14 footer and his is a 17 foot rogue which is lighter them mine since it was built with much more honeycomb and foam. If don't think I would take a big heavy Briggs down at 2300.

L

We launch Monday Sept 14 and take out Sunday Sept 20.

I will keep track of the water and give you an update after our run. I want to take a look at Joe Hutch and see if I can spot the rock where my friend Ryan landed 2 times now.

We have a small trip of 5 with 2 rafts so to make transport easier I have decided to leave my dory home for this one. Just got back from fishing the Green section A. The reservoir is almost full and the flow seem to be running 1500 - 2400 each day. Haven't seen that much water in Sept in a long time. The flow in Deso is showing 2300 - 2400. The Yampa must be down to nothing. But we had 23 last year and that was enough for everything but made Joe Hutch interesting.

I will give you an update when I get back for sure. You can see some images of Joe Hutch taken by my friend Dave Inskeep when they ran last spring at 24000.

http://www.inskeepimages.com/g/highwaterdeso

My boat went down that trip with a friend while I used his raft on a Grand trip.

L

It will be rocky. At the first major rapid you will have a channel going on both sides of a large rock in the middle of the river. I took a rubber boat through first to get the line. The trick is to go slow and cushion off the rock and let the river decide which of the two channels you will take. After that you will have some serious rock gardens. It is doable in a light boat, but if you are carrying a lot of gear? Have fun.

Hi Jim,

Got off Deso today at 2:00. Flow is holding around 2400. While some runs were a bit boney, a dory would have been fine. Likely you would bump a few but not hard enough to be an issue.

Joe Hutch Rapid is ok at 2400 but, there is the possibility of difficulty. The entry is the same at 2400 as it was last Oct. The debris fan from last years flood has channeled the river to the left bank. The river accelerates quit a bit. The entry and first 60 feet or so have a wave train that starts at the tongue. The run is down the center.

Just below then entry waves you get about 50 feet of some fast flat water it leads right to a pour over and a hole. For fun we ran both our 16 foot rafts through that hole. We punched through just fine and took on some water. If you dig you should be able to slide left of this hole. Just below the hole the run is left along the ledges. Last year this section below where the hole is was filled with rocks and you had to get right or left. This springs 25000 flow has cleaned it out and it is now a much easier run.

I will try to get you a few images in the next day or so.

Larry

Something I forgot to mention.

Our second boat had a 20 year old lumber yard frame. 2 X 6 and steel tube. The person who runs the boat also loves to run a very soft boat. Like 1 PSI, I'm not kidding. When they went into the bottom of the hole the boat tacoed and the 2 X 6 broke.

It's a nice hole so take a close look.

By the time you get there the bugs be gone. I got eaten.

Have a nice time.
L

Little no see ums. 1 hour before dark and until 1 hour after. It will take a few cold nights to shut them down.

Jim,

I posted a photo of 3 of us running the hole at Joe Hutch. The flow takes you straight to it. Notice the slack water in the front of the image. There is enough time to move around this hole. At 2300 it was fairly deep. It was our plan to give it a shot for kicks.

My friend Jeremy (another dory builder) is at the oars. When we went in I had all 225 pounds of me on top of the front tube and got pushed back. For some reason some of the folks I boat with don't like to put much air in their boats. They always taco up on this stuff.

Since it's not a wood boat photo I will take it down after you take a look.

Larry

Jim

We would be happy to point you in a good direction when you arrive in Jackson. The river will be low but runnable and fishing should be good. I will be off Steelhead fishing at that time but Dutch and Kevin will be happy to help you out. Give them a call.

Kevin 307 413 5098

Dutch 440 506 1442

Cheers,

AJ

Jim,

what is a "partial deck" that you refer to in your profile?

Den in NH

Wow, where to start?
Ballast your load well. Lots of heavy stuff low and centered, fluffy stuff high, holding it in place. Light dories flip a lot easier.

Hit the waves as straight as you can, and if you have passengers, really work on high-siding. A little weight on their toes instead of their butts, ready to forcefully put their weight into the waves and then return to center.

Do a few flip drills (before the trip in a warm lake is nice!) so that if you do roll it you'll have her up FAST before she hits anything.

Quick release ties for at least the first spare oars.

Right in House Rock, left to center in Hance, Center in Horn Creek, down the gut in Granite and be ready to pivot toward the wall 2/3 of the way through (there's a lateral coming off the wall that flips dories who fail to point at it), down the gut at Hermit YAHOO!, right a Crystal, left at Upset, left at Lava. The left entry at Lava is letter than most folks think--that's why they go off the ledge.

But mostly just have big fun.

Also, I recommend beer, whiskey, tequila, and gin and tonics. Best not all at once except below Lava.

Rock on,

Brad

Re the entry in Lava: I typed "lefter" but auto correct changed it to "letter." Further left.

Upset is a minor rapid at that stage--go for the biggest waves you can find down the left. Dubendorff is also a beautiful wave train. Down the left and ride the waves.

I've beard Specter is pretty snappy at these flows.

Enjoy

Hi Jim,

You may be downstream by this time, but I just returned from a trip last night, so sorry for the delay. We had 25k flows and it's over-all a "forgiving level" for hard-hulls. Left entry at Hance, Right at Crystal, and of course, left at Lava. -Just gotta' be looking ahead and paying attention to the boily-stuff in the gorges. The old "anticipation thing". Specter is getting fairly juicy and be ready to meet a large lateral off the wall there by squaring-up with your bow there. Plenty of room at House Rock and Bedrock to get further right where needed. Tail waves in House Rock are impressive right now. There's a further left entry, also at Granite to hopefully get you left of the wave-train at the bottom, tail waves...(as King Edward really wants you, there...).

 

-Bout all I can think of right now. When in doubt scout and have a fabulous trip.

Andy

J,

-Yes, you can come in "tight" (to the left) at Specter (bow entry-best), and square-up to lateral wave feeding left to right. Anticipate an immediate-spin to right to meet the edge of large lateral wave/s off wall. (Or keep angle hard left and miss the "crunchy stuff", aiming for slack-water. (Not a bad idea to scout this...).

Granite has an "inside" entry at this water stage which is convenient. It's a floppy wave to the left of the burbles-(off left-side of main, rt. tounge), and it works to run the middle of this wave (floating, no-mo), and then square-up to laterals feeding rt. w/ a downstream ferry angle to left. This should take you towards left eddy or at least to left side of the monster tail waves (which seem to be feeding main current into the king-eddy on right. If you do end-up in K.E., you can escape down rt. side of island at this level. Scout this!

As a rule (for dories at least), levels at 20K+: Less rock crunching. More flip potential. Brad's right. Go practice flip drills, (an then you won't flip on the river..).

Have a great trip Jim!