Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by chris towles on February 2, 2011 at 2:26am

yes ben kittell, you did it! i knew when we talked on the cataract trip that you had the bug. glad to see you're going to make it happen. nothing like just jumping in and seeing where you end up (kinda like boating).

 

here my musings: i think you should build it stitch and glue with a plascore hull, i might even think about foam cabinets. painted interior. you could end up with one seriously light bomber boat. check montana-riverboats.com for more info on this whole "newer" style of building. little more glass intensive, less woodworking intensive. my next boat will probably be more along these lines

 

if you prefer the more tradition approach to boat building, it is well outlined in the book, and has worked quite well for many many many years. if you were to build a framed rogue river dory I would suggest 3/8" sides and 1/2" bottom (little heavier, but knowing what you are going to want to run in the boat, def more bomber). i might still reccomend the plascore hull here too, that stuff seems like a pretty awesome material and is light and bomber!. frames of cvg fir are fine, i also milled my of my own stock on the table saw out of clear pieces of select framing fir. the stufff is dirt cheap and if you can pick thru the stack you can almost always find mostly clear boards with very ittle imperfections.

an oiled interior is probably the easiest and lowest maintenance, but you will have to be extra extra careful when sealing the cabinet sides with 5200 or sika 291 to mask well and not get it everywhere. if you can manage to keep your cabinet joint seams neat an oiled interior will look great and be easy to keep up. i used penofin marine oil on mine but many guys here make a cheap homemade boat soup (linseed oil/turp). I would suggest against varnish, looks great, but it alot of upkeep. paint is probably the easiest of all..easy to apply, last forever, little upkeep. but once you paint you can never go back. as to the exterior, outside of side panels should get 6oz glass (layup prior to building and bending), fairing, primer, paint...in that order with lots of sanding between each step. just go to the paint store and get the best industrial oil based enamel they have (satin or semigloss hopefully)..you'll probably only need a quart. for the bottom, i like a 20ozish biax or triax glass. some guys will do 20oz reg weave, some will do 3 layers of 6 oz. the biax or triax will be much stronger though. layup the cloth and do 3-4 flow coats with graphite powder. chine battens should be white oak. gunnels should also be white oak, but fir works well here too (and can match well if you have an all fir boat.) i cut mine out of a clear 16' framing piece, cost me like $12 to make gunnels and they look great.

 

well thats probably enough to think about for now, give me a buzz (josh has my #) or email if you have any more questions, theres plenty more i can tell you. the roomates just dragged home a nice looking mckenzie yesterday. needs a full varnish refinish but the outside of the boat was just redone. a little elbow grease and those guys are gonna be stylin. ive been getting in the spring kind of mood even though its -40 here right now. thinkin warm thoughts,

chris

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jerry Thompson on February 2, 2011 at 4:03am

Wood Source.

Ben, Sears Trostle over on Riverside between Lemay and Prospect Carries marine plywood. The last time I was in there, they only had a couple of sheets but they will get it in for you. They are the only source for White Oak that I know of but surely there is some in Denver. For CVG Doug. fir, I picked through the pile at Lowes and found enough good stuff to build my frames.

 

Welcome and good luck!

Jerry

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 2, 2011 at 8:16am

Ben,

 

With all those frames, bulkhead, decks and hatches with 3/8 and 1/2 inch plywood you are looking at one heavy boat.  I am finishing up a 16 foot decked composite boat which looks like it will finish out at about 275-300 pounds.  My guess is that a 3/8 and 1/2 plywood boat of the same size would add about 100 pounds.  Nothing wrong with wood, just wanted to try something new.  Wood boats last forever.

 

As for the selection of the Rogue, I have a friend who has built the very boat you are talking about.  A decked self bailing Rogue.  

 

I have attached an image of his boat.  He worked from the plans in Rogers book and I seem to remember him telling me that he ran into something in the plans which didn't work quite right.  I don't know if he talked with Roger about it or not.  The boat turned out very nice and now has many mile on it down the Green and Cataract.  He selected the Rogue so he could motor off Cataract.

 

Make sure you check out the builders forum at montana-riverboats.com.  It is more of a stitch and glue group who build with all kinds of materials wood included.

 

Contact me off line lhedrick_at_mountaindogs.net if I can give you additional information regarding stitch and glue construction and composites.  This is really more of a forum for traditional, historic framed wood  boats.

 

As for finish, for everyday use paint is about as good as it gets and the maintenance is not all that much.  I wouldn't try using 24 Oz glass, it's kind of difficult to work with.  Most of us use several layers of 10 Oz.  There is also strong biaxial 17 oz which works well, any heavier and it starts to become difficult to wet out.

 

Being a beginner is nothing to worry about.  If you are familiar with basic tools you just need to get started and take your time.

 

L

Attachments:

• rogue.jpg, 184 KB

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by chris towles on February 2, 2011 at 10:31am

i think that 17 oz biax was what i used (thought it might have been 18oz, but not sure). i used a 7oz on the sides which i got on clearance. i got all my glass from fiberglasssupply.com. also, if you stay away from west systems systems epoxy you will save yourself some some cash. i hear that raka is prob the best bang for the buck, and many here have had great results with system 3. the west stuff has the premium price attached to the "premium name".

 

i would suggest you pay attention to larry on the whole weight issue, thats why i suggested the plascore hull and stitch and glue construction. these boats don't easily carry the typical loads your used to rafting. a light boat means less effort rowing and better manueverability, a heavy boat feels sluggish..like a raft. you  can cut the weight out of two places..gear or the boat. as you know based on our prior discussions i like to do both, but you'll have a whole lot easier time cutting more weight out of the boat..especially if you pay attention during the build and get the right stuff. getting rid of the frames will cut quite a bit of weight, although you'll prob put a bit of it back with the excess epoxy and fillets. that said, while many will have arguments over which is better for whatever their reason, stitch and glue boats have proven to be just as durable as a framed boat.

 

also, on the whole self bailing/hatches setup, check this forum. therre are a few guys here (brad, larry, robb grubb, kelly neu) who are building or have built some sweet self bailing setups with nice decks. their photos are a great resource. actually, to be honest, find your self an hour or two and just go page to page and look at all the photos here in the photos section. grab a notebook and jot down which pictures you like and what ideas you'de like to try on your own boat (makes it easier to find the photos later). you can make your boat very sweet and very custom by following others lead around here. don't forget those removable fishermans braces and rod holders either for those idaho salmon trips.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ben Kittell on February 2, 2011 at 11:31am

L: your friends boat looks great!

 

Chris: great to hear from you. Taking yet another semester off from school has given me the time to build this boat. So you think SNG would be better with a composit hull??? Do you treat it just like you would with plywood?

 

Also for building decking do you just attach the pieces directly to the hull then???

 

No way would I ever forget the removable braces and thinking periminent rod holders. Maybe when I finish we could get on a late season middle fork trip. 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by chris towles on February 2, 2011 at 12:49pm

ben,

     already in the lottery for the salmon and selway...should hear in the next few days. feeling lucky =)

 

as far as framed vs stitch and glue and wood vs composite, you'll hear arguments from both sides of the isle ..especially here. but better? depends what your definition in. lighter and just as strong? definatly. many if not all of the commercial oars dories working the canyon are foam core boats. larry here is building a very nice looking full plascore boat right now. and jason at montana boatbuilders who arguable builds the nicest looking wood boat out there right now builds stitch and glue with wood sides and all plascore hulls. plascore is a legit building material that i think has great applications in boat building.

 

as for the foam cabinets, you would probably glass and fillet to the sides. this is kind of a newer building idea, so you would probably want to do a little more research. i think kelly neu built her boat with foam cabinets, might want to check her build blog for more info. larry's full plascore boat looks to have fillets and glassed in cabinets. he also has a crazy free floating floor thing going on...check his site for pics. you could also go all hyrid too..vertical surfaces of wood and horizontal surfaces of foam, sounds like a great idea to me. 3/8" wood cabinet fronts attached to the wood sides with mini ribs and 5200 at the cabinet mount location and foam core cabinet tops. any place you are able to use the foam you will save weight. and you can find uses for the foam in whichever technique to you decide to do, although the foam does require glass and paint.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 2, 2011 at 1:03pm

I have built decks with 1/4 inch plywood applying 10 oz glass top and bottom.  Hatch lids were also 1/4.  On spots which have a long span, some plywood braces can be applied to the under side to add strenght.  You could use 3/8 for the decks but that will add weight and I would not consider 1/2.   Another friend rows a 16 foot Tatman.   All plywood. 1/2 inch bottom, 1/4 inch sides.  Full framed construction.  Not sure of the decks and hatches not 1/4 for sure.  They are 3/8 or 1/2.  It's a tank, very solid boat.  3 Trips down the grand, more runs down Desolation than I can count and still in perfect shape.  The only down side is the weight.

 

As for attaching the deck.  I fiber glass top and bottom then just epoxy the plywood deck to the top of the bulkheads and attach them to the sides with an epoxy fillet and then cover the fillet with some 1 inch glass tape.

 

Stitch and glue is very different then building a framed boat.  Not saying one is better then the other.  I have built 6 boats with stitch and glue.  It's just what I understand and I think it's a bit easier.  It might also take longer.   You do need to deal with the epoxy which is very sticky stuff.  I have used over 60 gallons of Raka epoxy with their fillers, glass and kevlar and I am satisfied with the results.  Epoxy is about 45 a gallon in 12 gallon kits.  The technique is the same if building with foam core, honeycomb or plywood.  The foam and honey comb are lighter.

 

if you build a decked boat, there won't be much side panel real estate left for rod holders.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ben Kittell on February 3, 2011 at 5:53pm

Thanks for the help. Just a few more questions.

Fiberglass: Im confused, it seems like you fiberglass the inside and outside of the bottem and side pannels THEN BEND and install to frame/ glue together. I thought the glass made the wood totally ridigid. If you shape then glass do you just lay the fiberglass on the inside INBETWEEN the frames?

 

When painting: order of application: Epoxy, fillet, glass, paint???

 

Can you still put screws through fiberglass? Then would it be best to epoxy over the screws to waterproof?

 

Planning on ordering all finish products (fiberglass, fillets, epoxy) from Raka. thinking of ordering only 10 OZ fiberglass. How much of everything should I order for a decked 16' boat? Kinda want to get everything at one time to reduce shipping.

 

Alos thinking of using 1/2" plascore for a bottem shoe. Where is this product available? 

 

Buying wood this weekend, once I insulate the grague I hope to get started building. This excitement is making me want to drop out of my kayaking trip at the end of Feb. Who knows maybe I will miss the suprebowl.

 

Thanks again for all the help, sorry for the seamingly stupid questions.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 3, 2011 at 8:43pm

Before assembly to the frame, the inside surfaces are glassed.  The outside gets glass after the sides are mounted and the bottom is glued on.  If you glass both sides it is much harder to bend, some have reported breaking panels when both sides have been glassed and then tried to bend them around the frames.  

 

I am not a framed builder.  With stitch and glue the frames are removed.  If you are building with permanent frames and want to glass the hull then you would still glass the inside first.  Since framed construction attaches sides to the bottom with a strip on the outside you don't use fillets.  With stitch and glue we fillet the inside corner so the glass will flow over the curve without lifting up and trapping air.  The outside gets rounded over and then several layers of glass tape are applied.

 

It's not a problem drilling through fiberglass.  If you build stitch and glue screws are only temporary.  After epoxy has cured they all get removed.  The entire boat will be bonded together with the epoxy.  Be very careful when working with panels on a work table.  Any epoxy drip will bond your work to a wood table and you will break it getting it apart.

 

The process is:

glass the side panels, inside only.  

screw them  them to frames.

mill a stem and pull the front together

build a transom and pull the stern together

check alignment

cut out the bottom 

glass the inside only

glue on the bottom

glass the outside bottom

glass the sides

glass the bottom again

roll on enough epoxy to fill the cloth weave to make it smooth

glass the chine with at least 2 layers of the biaxial tape

flip it over 

fillet the inside chine

1 more layer of 10 oz glass on the inside bottom going 2 inches up the side

2 layers of biaxial tape over the inside chine

 

That is the process.  Not difficult just takes time.  I started in Oct and put in a few hours each day.  You can see the process of my current boat at:

 

mountaindogs.net/plascorehull

 

This is a composite boat but, the process is the same for wood.

 

Plascore is a problem in that we get it directly from the manufacturer in Michigan.  Shipping is a killer.  When I get it I try to buy 10 or more sheets at a time.  Next time I will move up to 1 inch on the bottom.  The additional weight is almost nothing and the thicker it gets the more impact it will handle. 

 

For the 16 foot decked boat I am working on which is almost done, I ordered the following.

 

50 yards 12 oz 6 inch biaxial tape

50 yards  10 oz 6 inch plain weave tape

25 yards 10 oz 60 inch plain weave glass cloth

5 yards 17 oz 50 inch biaxial cloth

5 pounds milled glass fiber

16 oz fumed silica

32 oz phenolic micro spheers

12 gallons epoxy kit 8 gallons resin 2 gallons fast hardener 2 gallons slow hardener

 

also get some foam rollers, mixing sticks. plastic spreaders and gloves. 

 

2 5 X 10 foot 1/2 sheets for the sides

2 5 X 10 foot 3/4 sheets for the bottom (1 inch next time)

 

This is a wood boat forum and I only mention the plascore because that is what I am using for this boat.  If the plascore is replaced with plywood the process is the same.  I have built both.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Scott Hepler on February 4, 2011 at 8:13am

Another method, which I haven't seen very much in the post, is to glass both sides, and glass both sides of the bottom and stich it together without any frames, either temporary or permanent. I have built two boats that way and Jason at montanaboatbuilders.com has built dozens that way. Here is a link to my build, http://gallery.me.com/scotthepler#100220/IMG_1422. There are many advantageges, like you can sand, and flow coat the epoxy much easier on a flat surface. smooth the epoxy. time saved building frames, you can "prebend" the shape of the bottom and see the shape easier. So if you want a flat spot, or a lot of rocker, or what I did which is a progressive rocker so it is nearly flat in the middle, and the rocker progresses up at both ends. Much like the progressive bend in a flyrod.
The sides of the boat will follow the lines of the bottom and with the transom left open until a few temp braces are in place the sides are quite flexible. So you can determine within reason the amount of flare etc etc. Once you like the shape and the boat is square just add the transom and interior componets, and then gunnels and the boat is totally ridged.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ben Kittell on February 4, 2011 at 8:57am

L: Is that your supply list and process for SNG? Im planning on sticking with the frame, so would I get away with less epoxy and glass then you have listed there?

 

Your boat looks amazing by the way. Thanks again for answering all my nubie questions.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 4, 2011 at 9:36am

Yes

 

With frames you won't use all the fillers and chine tape.  As I said I only build stitch and glue boats.  All the fillet work will not happen on a framed boat.  If you want to glass it you would just use the fabric and epoxy.  

 

Seems many framed builders don't use fiberglass.  They oil the inside and just paint the outside.  There are lots of framed boats around from way back to the 50s so it's all proven technology.  A light layer of 4 oz glass and epoxy will seal off the wood for painting and get rid of the checking which often happens with painted wood.

 

Other then my boat and a friends I have never seen a stitch and glue boat on big water trip.  All the boats I have seen are framed.  My only real question with framed boats for big water is that a plywood bulkhead will act like a frame, so it seems a lot of extra weight is added.  Might not be that much if 1/8 or 1/4 is used for the bulkhead.

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page