Wooden Boat People
By McKenzieDriftBoat.com
Boat Coating News
I visited a Parker Paint store yesterday to obtain some additional
primer to spray on my house I inquired about the suitability their
various paint products for use on a drift boat. I think I hit a jackpot
as their outside commercial salesman was in the store. I first asked
about oil based enamel and his response was over time it dries out and
becomes rigid with the potential for cracking if the substrate moves or
flexes. He then got a twinkle in his eye and grabbed a chunk of ceramic
tile with a glossy black coating on half of it. He said here is the
product that you need. I tried scratching it off with a sharp knife, I
found I could but it wasn't easy.
It is an industrial version of automotive paint. To quote the literature "U-5000 is our premium two
component, low VOC, high performance water reducible, non-yellowing
aliphatic polyurethane coating. U-5000 is a high gloss UV, abrasion, and
chemical resistant, flexible urethane coating that can be used for
interior and exterior applications."
What does this mean to us, wooden drift boat builders?
1. High durability
2. Cleans up with water
3. Doesn't smell bad nor is it bad for you to breathe. (He opened a can of
Part One and it smelled much less than a can of latex paint) When Part
Two is added the odor is even less.
4. As it is a "polyurethane" it is flexible and can move with the substrate (hull).
5. It is not suitable for long term, (months) immersion on wood but works
well for occasional immersion of approximately a week or two.
6. Can be brushed, rolled or sprayed.
7. Can be applied to many surfaces, wood, metal, aluminum, galvanized metal without the need for primer.
8. It is available in clear, gloss, satin and matte, gloss white, tintable bases in gloss.
9. Only available in gallons for $100 or $25 a quart which seems to be a reasonable price to me.
10. He also said that the product allows moisture molecules to pass through
wood but keeps water molecules out, much like our Goretex waders.
11. He also stated that the product can be easily repainted if needed.
12. When I asked about the life span he said that if stored the majority of
time out of the sun it would last longer than I would.
So I will soon be buying some and applying it to my yet to be built drift boat as a test craft.
Comex Industrial Coatings makes the product and is available through Parker
Paint stores. Here is the URL for the Product Data Sheet: [www.comexindustrialcoatings.com]
If you review the sheet you can see the diversity of installations that
the product is used on. Many are in much harsher environments than we
use our drift boats in. It has been in use since 1996.
Rick Newman
primer to spray on my house I inquired about the suitability their
various paint products for use on a drift boat. I think I hit a jackpot
as their outside commercial salesman was in the store. I first asked
about oil based enamel and his response was over time it dries out and
becomes rigid with the potential for cracking if the substrate moves or
flexes. He then got a twinkle in his eye and grabbed a chunk of ceramic
tile with a glossy black coating on half of it. He said here is the
product that you need. I tried scratching it off with a sharp knife, I
found I could but it wasn't easy.
It is an industrial version of automotive paint. To quote the literature "U-5000 is our premium two
component, low VOC, high performance water reducible, non-yellowing
aliphatic polyurethane coating. U-5000 is a high gloss UV, abrasion, and
chemical resistant, flexible urethane coating that can be used for
interior and exterior applications."
What does this mean to us, wooden drift boat builders?
1. High durability
2. Cleans up with water
3. Doesn't smell bad nor is it bad for you to breathe. (He opened a can of
Part One and it smelled much less than a can of latex paint) When Part
Two is added the odor is even less.
4. As it is a "polyurethane" it is flexible and can move with the substrate (hull).
5. It is not suitable for long term, (months) immersion on wood but works
well for occasional immersion of approximately a week or two.
6. Can be brushed, rolled or sprayed.
7. Can be applied to many surfaces, wood, metal, aluminum, galvanized metal without the need for primer.
8. It is available in clear, gloss, satin and matte, gloss white, tintable bases in gloss.
9. Only available in gallons for $100 or $25 a quart which seems to be a reasonable price to me.
10. He also said that the product allows moisture molecules to pass through
wood but keeps water molecules out, much like our Goretex waders.
11. He also stated that the product can be easily repainted if needed.
12. When I asked about the life span he said that if stored the majority of
time out of the sun it would last longer than I would.
So I will soon be buying some and applying it to my yet to be built drift boat as a test craft.
Comex Industrial Coatings makes the product and is available through Parker
Paint stores. Here is the URL for the Product Data Sheet: [www.comexindustrialcoatings.com]
If you review the sheet you can see the diversity of installations that
the product is used on. Many are in much harsher environments than we
use our drift boats in. It has been in use since 1996.
Rick Newman
Views: 876
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Lawrence E. Long on
-
The next time I build a boat with ceramic tile I will call up Parker. Used since 1996 is not too much of a track record. The Kirby family has been making marine paint since 1846. I guess i am just an old stick in the mud and won't change my ways. Please let us know how that paint/coating works out.
Good Luck
-
Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on
-
Mr. Long, I appreciate your comments and thoughts. I noticed in the most recent issue of Wooden Boat that Epifanes is advertising "The Epifanes 450", a two-part polyester saturated, aliphatic urethane formula. Now I realize that because an expensive advertisement has been paid for doesn't make a product a quality one. On the other hand a company that has been building and developing "yacht coatings" since 1902 has a reputation to live up to.
While researching this type of product and I will admit not yet trying the product I have found that there are several industrial companies lead by names such as Bayer and DOW that have multiple industrial and automotive coatings that are water based polyurethanes. Bayer started worked on polyurethanes in the 1930's. They lead the way in the entire industry bringing the technology in to many everyday items. I am not saying that Kirby paints are a bad or inferior product and I hope that isn't what I have communicated. I am saying that I found a type of product that might be useful to others in the wooden boat community and wanted to share the information. When I lok at a variety of wooden boat entries many of them ask "What should I use on my boat?" It has been my nature to try and find solutions for problems. I totally agree that Kirby makes a fine paint based on the research I have done and do not disagree with the results that you and many others have had with it.
I noticed that several people have mentioned that they cannot purchase oil-based enamels in the states that they reside. I still can purchase them here in Washington state. Looking at a map of VOC (Volatile Organic Compounds) emissions allowed the amount of VOC's that coatings will be allowed is going down. California leads the nation with the lowest number of VOC's allowed. Recent history shows that California has led the nation down similar paths before in such things as vehicle emissions. I don't want to see that happen, but I'll bet it will. The industrial coatings companies are already preparing for that time and are changing the way that they design their coatings.
I don't know about you, but I find it much more pleasant to work with products that don't have an obnoxious or unpleasant smell to them. When I sprayed my house with an oil-based enamel primer last week it was a strong odor that my neighbors mentioned and that since I was foolish enough to not wear a respirator I could feel the effects of the VOC's emitted by the paint. The latex paint sprayed the next day even had an smell that wasn't pleasant when sprayed.
No, I don't plan to build a ceramic tile boat but if I could get my hands on the technology they use to build parts of the space shuttle perhaps it could be a neat boat. I would guess however that the ceramics they use may be a bit brittle in a shallow, rocky river. Maybe science will come up with a way to solve that too!.....
I have always been an early adopter of new technology, not always with good results! My first computer class in 1969 was a bust so I waited about 15 years for the technology to become more user friendly, perhaps if I had stuck with computers back then I could have worked for Microsoft and been retired by now! I have tried a number of new products that didn't work as expected or promised. I have also tried some new products like polymerized self-leveling floor compounds that worked great.
To clarify what I told the salesman about how I planned to use my drift boat might help. If I get the time to boat 10 days a year in the near future I would be estatic. If the boat gets 50 hours of use in a year I will be very happy. My garage has space to store my boat out of the sun. I have the the tools to either spray, roll or brush on coatings. While my woodworking has not been fine finish cabinetry work I have done it for a long time and have experienced a variety of paints and their applications.
I plan to buy one gallon of the gloss finish and work on my interior parts as time permits. I will also coat some extra pieces of wood and submerge them in water, leave them outside and store one inside. While this won't be a long term test, it should represent the use I plan to make of the coating. I would be happy to send you some pieces to try out too when I get some painted.
The neat thing about this forum is we get to share diverse information and new ideas. I have learned about many new things that have been helpful to me from here and from the other forums. When the first guy drove a Model T I'm sure he upset many folks with that new fangled contraption.
Good luck in your boat building and hope we can all continue to share new ideas and technologies that can assist us in this wonderful world of wooden boats.
My best to you,
Rick Newman
-
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on
-
Rick,
Your points are all valid. It would be a big improvement for all if we had some new safer paints which did not use oil based spirits. Turpentine, naphtha, MEK, toluene, xylene, I have worked with all of them and would prefer not to.
As I stated over on the montana-riverboats forum, I have tried water based products and have not had much luck. After having to rework a few projects I now only try the apply after test method. It's a good option to obtain samples, apply them and put them out in the weather.
If you are willing to give new paints a try you will be helping all of us. When you find the good ones we will all have more options. I would recommend doing a search to find those who have tried the new finishes before you risk a major project.
Another paint option. A friend painted his boat with sherwin williams oil based house paint. After about 5 years now it looks fine. Reasonable cost and availability make oil house paint a valid option.
L
-
-
Larry, thanks for your comments. It appears that I have stirred up the fire!
Perhaps if we shared failures or degrees of failure or success with each of the possible coatings folks could better decide which would work best for each individuals needs. The weather and environmental conditions faced by Randy and the Western Oregon crowd have different needs than the desert rivers of Idaho and Eastern Oregon. Wisconsin, Michigan, Maine yet again different river and environmental conditions. While some similarites exist between the use of a wooden boat in a water based environment is consistent, there are many factors that are different.
Consider the amount of time that each boat is used as well as where and how it is stored. Then whether or not a it is a "Brightwork", highly varnished show piece boat or whether it is a get-the- job done, use it hard and enjoy it vessel. Is it a boat with fish entrails, sand, old flies, beverage cans and other detritus. Or is it somewhere in between. Is it being used every day and the function is more important than the appearance.
My point is, your finish failures might be just fine for someone else whose use patterns and such are different. We are all obviously individuals with a desire to do our own "thing" with wooden boats rather than fiberglass, aluminum or polyethylene. We are choosing an age old material often modified with high-tech glues and technologies and asking it to perform tasks that a tree was never meant to accomplish. Then we match that wood with a combination of products and chemicals adopted from a diverse spectrum of technologies.
Consider that Stitch and glue craft did not exist until 1964 when woodworking teacher Ken Littledyke "inveted" it. However the Laplanders have used a "sewn" boat technique presumably for many years, however it isn't known whether or not he got his ideas from them. I'll bet they didn't use epoxy! Look where stitch and glue has progressed.
To summarize, perhaps those of us interested could compile a list of failures, successes, advantages and disadvantages of different coating systems so those that follow can make educated choices about that might work best for their unique needs. I would be willing to work on such a document but could only assemble it with input from the entire community.
How is your new boat coming? Maybe a few of could get together on the Lower Main Salmon next summer. No permit required!
Rick Newman
-
-
Rick,
I plan to start in the next week or two.
This boat will be an experimental so to speak. It will be almost all composite honeycomb 3/4 inch bottom 1/2 inch sides. Sides, bottom and deck will all be honeycomb. The goal is to come in around 150 pounds under the large Briggs boats, flexible and stronger. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. It could be a 4000 dollar mistake but someone needs to build it.
As it's not a wood project and this is a wood forum I will stop there.
-------
At times people get hung up on the traditional. The boats of 50 - 60 years ago may be classics today but when they were built they were leading edge. I wonder what the old school of the 40's thought when new plywood designs started to be built? I'm sure some told them they were crazy and planks would always be best. Sometimes people forget how classics are created. Everyone should be willing to help the evolution as we go forward.
Having said that I also am a big fan of seeing the completely traditional wood boats when I am on the river. I have floated with and rowed the classics which have been rebuilt by Tom Marten and Kyle Frye.
There is room for all of this as we go forward. I bet the builders of 1940 would have jumped right into composites and epoxy. If they weren't that way we wouldn't have framed plywood drifters or anything else to talk about.
L
-
Permalink Reply by Mike Baker on
-
Hey Rick,
That paint sounds very intriguing. Feel free to give us a test run! I have heard very good things about System three's Water based cross linked finish. Water based finishes will probably be the future.
Larry, I can't speak for everyone else but I would love to hear about your experiment. I love wood boats but am not oblivious to there shortcomings. As an example I think Boulder Boat works has one of the coolest boats out there. I have even recently been wondering if one could put a traditional wood bottom (maybe 1/4") on a framed boat and then bond some 3/4" Plascore on that for durability.
Mike
-
-
Mike, that's what I thought too! As I implied above Comex U-5000 may not be the right coating for everyone, perhaps it will fit the needs of a few of us. When money becomes available I will try it out.
Rick Newman
-
-
Rick,
A friend had some troubles with bottom breakage on a decked white water boat with a 3/8 bottom. I had some 3/4 honeycomb and we were going to add it to the bottom. It would have been totally bomb proof but also over kill since there were already 2 layers of 10 Oz glass on the bottom.
Instead of adding the honeycomb and more glass he decided to add just 1 layer of 13 Oz stitched triaxial kevlar. Very good stuff. I plan to use the same kevlar on my next boat.
As for the Boulder Boats, I can see why the guides like them but, I think 10000.00 is kind of a high price. From what I have heard, their 17000 dollar decked whiter water boat has been taken out of production. The plastic is not easily fixable like wood and epoxy.
No matter how we look at all this, in many ways wood is still the best most cost effective material we have.
-
Permalink Reply by Dave Z on
-
I have a boat (The first recreated Trapper built) that has plain old latex exterior house paint on the outside of the hull over KILZ primer and epoxy on fir. The boat sees 60 days + on the river, gets left out many days in the elements, and is stored dry in the winter. The interior parts are oiled with turp/linseed/pine tar. We've abused this boat dragging it through woods, over guard rails, through skinny water, duck hunting in the fall, etc...
Roger, when did I build this thing? It has not been refinished and doesn't need it. Still looks respectable. We're in PA and its humid and sticky in the summer, rainy and cold in the fall and spring.
I'm not one for spending big $$$ on paint and finishes. 1 quart covered that whole boat and enough leftovers still sitting on the shelf.
Just another perspective before you drop $100/gallon.
-
-
Good information Dave. I like the idea of seeing the character and grain of the wood but I don't want to apply varnish as often as it appears to be required. All my varnished applications are currently indoors, however the varnish and sometimes the wood underneath needs to be repaired or replaced way too often. Now that there is only one kid at home I don't have the repair frequency that I've had for the last ten years. So I'm tired of that repetitive task and don't want my drift boat to require the same. Hence my search for a coating system that appears to offer a potentially clear coating that doesn't require that commitment. With a potential to cover 300 or 400 square feet it seems like a reasonable cost for two coats of paint as recommended by the sales representative. Certainly not as inexpensive as your idea. An oil treatment on the interior panels and floor should keep the cost for the interior low.
Your paint system sounds like a great solution for those folks looking for a very durable, exceedingly low maintenance system. I just coated my cedar shakes with an oil-based primer and latex so I can hopefully spend more time in the future actually fishing and avoid excess maintenance.
Your input about your materials and application method and the long term results is one of the best points of this forum. The sharing and recording of this information is invaluable for future boat builders. Just like Roger's book has captured the history and details of drift boats.
Rick Newman
-
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on
-
System Three WR-LPU is good stuff and very similar to what you describe.
The reason these paints are this price is they are worth it. Yes you can use enamel, no it isn't as tough. Unfortunately about $146 a gallon. You can get clear WR-LPU in high gloss or satin.
Bristol, which we use, is $165.00 or so, and is not water based but is a bit tougher.
-
Permalink Reply by michael chnya on
-
© 2024 Created by Randy Dersham.
Powered by
