cutting the scarf

Last week a friend started working on a new boat in the same shop I work in.  He started by cutting the scarf on the 1/4 plywood.  I clamped a scrap piece of 1/4 Okoume plywood to the bench and showed him how I cut it with a plane.  He then clamped his 1/4 hydrotek plywood down and went to work.  For some reason the hydrotek kept clogging up the plane.  The blade was sharp.  It just didn't work out.  I tried a different plane, same thing.  Both were 12 inch jack planes.  Later I went back to the okoume plywood to try again and it cut just fine.

 

Anyone else have this trouble.  He then went to work with a belt sander which is no fun.

 

L

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Permalink Reply by Lawrence E. Long on April 14, 2011 at 8:44am

Larry:  I have run into the same problem.  Anything I build out of DF- skifs, drift boats not a problem.  4 canoes with Occume- not a problem- but when I work with Merranti  it drives me nuts-  Thank god I have a Tormec wet grinder and diamond  flat stones-  but any plane I use from lowangle block to 16" fore- the all dull fast and clog up. I suspect it is the glue- when you  look closely at the shavings there appears to bo a "filemnt" or very thin fiber mixed in with the shavings.  I talked with an old time builder and he also thinks  it is in the glue.  There are some African woods that have a high silica content but  I don't think this is the problem.  Building glued lapstreak with each plank curved  adds to the problem.  Atleast now I know I am not loosing my mind. 

Thanks 

Permalink Reply by Ben Kittell on April 14, 2011 at 9:34am
I used a plane with hydro tek with little trouble. The top sheets kept getting stuck, but other then that I thought it went fine.
Permalink Reply by Dave Z on April 14, 2011 at 10:30am

I've seen the fiber in the material as  you have.  also, soem of the interior plies on some recent Meranti I got was suprisingly crappy quality.  Try a low angle plane.  I use a #220 or 9-1/2 with little issue.  Keep it sharp too.  Meranti seems to dull the hell out of tools.   I also procured a new tool- new to me- a Bosch hand power planer.  Sheesh it makes fast work.  I use it to hog most of the material off, then finish with the plane.

 

Good luck.

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on April 14, 2011 at 4:30pm

The power planer kind of scares me.  They cut so fast I was not sure I could control it.  I like the idea of cutting it rough then finish with a block plane.  I will give it a try on some scrap and see how it goes.

 

I didn't try a low angle plane.  

 

I also noticed it takes the edge off a sharp blade.  Must have a lot of silica or something.  I have to agree that if doesn't seem to be the best quality.  I also think the last sheet of aqua tech I used was not too great either.   I still like the Okoume but not at 100 a sheet.

 

My friend is building from wood with a plascore bottom.  I have switch to all plascore.  It has some issues also.  Wish quality fir was available.

Permalink Reply by Kelly Neu on April 14, 2011 at 9:38pm
Me too. I've used a power planer for 1/2" and 1/4" meranti ply and really liked it. I was terrified when I first started it up but it was surprisingly easy to control.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on April 15, 2011 at 7:22am

Hi Kelly,

 

The new boat is ready to go.  The paint is done, I will send you a photo when I get it outside and on the trailer.  I am ready to sell it so I can build the next one and it hasn't been in the water yet.  When every I finish one I don't have anything to do in the shop.  6 of us will be running Desolation next week.  The Yampa is already moving up and the flow down Deso is already 11000.  We were going to the San Juan but it doesn't have enough water so Deso it is.  We have mega snow here outside of Park City and it just won't stop snowing.  Alta is closing in on 200 inches of base.  Our mid elevation run off is just not starting.  If this trend continues, by the time we get to Deso for our trip in late May 30-35 K is a real possibility.  

------

Since everyone seems to like the power planer I am going to give it a try.  We have one in the shop but I am sure the blades are shot.  I am the only person there who ever sharpens anything.  When the others sharpen a chisel the all come out curved since they won't take the time to flatten the stones.  I lock up my stones and good cutting tools.

 

Hope your Rogue trip is a good one.

Permalink Reply by Kelly Neu on April 19, 2011 at 4:08pm

Likewise on the Deso.  Can't wait to hear about it!  Take some video if you can.  I'd love to see how that light boat of yours floats.  So cool!

Permalink Reply by Mike Baker on April 14, 2011 at 6:09pm

I'm with Larry, the power plane is hands down the scariest tool I own. About the only thing I use it for is trimming the excess overhang on the bottom panel and getting the chine log close.

On the scarfing I actually have the opposite problem, when I plane Meranti it planes like a dream but when I try to plane Doug Fir I can't get the plane to cut smoothly. It wants to do more tearing than actual cutting. Any more I hog out the bulk of the scarf with a router and shop built jig then finish it off with a combo of Jack plane belt sander and 1/4 sheet sander.

I really like the idea of a wood boat with a Plascore bottom, I would love to hear more about it.

Mike

 

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on April 16, 2011 at 7:59pm

Today I tried using the hand plane on a piece of aqua tech.  I had no trouble at all.  Perhaps it is a different glue in the hydroteck which gums up the plane as has been mentioned.  Even a small block plane with the mouth adjusted to a small opening seemed to cut fine.

 

Over the years the quality of wood products of all kinds seem to be going down hill.  Trees have become so valuable we seem to be faced with 2 paths.  Pay higher amounts for a graded type product or pay the same amounts for every decreasing quality.  Veneered cabinet grade stock just keeps getting thinner every year.  Finish sanding is becoming dangerous.  Put  a scratch in a pannel and it can't be removed.  Trying to sand it out will grind all the way through.

 

Wonder what we will have to work with 20 years from now.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on April 16, 2011 at 10:07pm

Plascore furniture! And a lot more synthetics.

 

Rick Newman

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on April 17, 2011 at 7:42am

Rick,

 

A person in shop my builds all his furniture and artwork from reclaimed material.  His clients get top notch hardwoods of all kinds and the price is low since he gets the stock free and even he is having a very hard time in this economy.  Every other person I have worked with is working with MDF and plywood covered with thin veneers.  They will just never hold up.  I can only imagine  the stuff will all need to be replaced in 25 years.  Kitchen cabinets with boxes made of MDF melamine.  The first leak under the sink and it will expand and explode.  Some of the guys have lost jobs because their clients have said "we can get a kitchen at IKEA" for 40 percent less.  Flat packed in a factory in China.   I went into an IKEA once to see what everyone was talking about,  Nasty!  I will never go back in there.  A local builder in my neighborhood put up a 5000 square foot house next to mine.  As I walked through it looking around, all the mill work was marked made in China.  Cabinets, interior and exterior doors, everything.  That was 10 years ago.  It sold for 750,000.  All the money he saved went in his pocket.  My guess is that he cleared 200,000 on that house.  He builds 2 a year.  I am sure he will take all the cheap stuff he can get his hands on.  I have a place to build and in the next few years I am going to do the same.  I left construction work to go to college to become an engineer.  Now that I am retried I may build a house every year as a retirement job.  If the buyers want IKEA that's what they will get.

 

Another person who I share shop space with does installation of very high end kitchen and cabinet systems in the million dollar Park City and Dear Valley homes.  All CNC made in high tech factories in Germany.  250K is the low end, really.  Much of it is flat panel doors and drawer fronts covered in stainless or copper.  The reveal between the doors is 1/16.  All micro adjusting hardware.  Almost none of his installations are solid wood raised pannel like from the past.  High tech contemporary metal fronts and face frames.

 

As most know I am doing more and more work with composites of all kinds.  Just finished my first all plascore whitewater boat.  I will build more of these for sure but, we are really losing touch with some of the great work of the past.  The old all wood power boats of the early days are amazing.  I guess not many will be built as we go forward.  There is nothing like the great all wood clear finished fly fishing setups.  Everyone loves them but, when they get their own boat most go with molded resin.  Sad.

 

A painted plywood boat is just a better product than any polyester boat from a mold.  It's lighter, stronger, can be repaired and will last 100 years of more if cared for but people have fallen for marketing lines.

 

As for the plywood quality issue,  we need to accept the price and hold the quality line.

 

L

 

 

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on April 17, 2011 at 9:21am

Larry, I am hopefully a few days from completion of my first boat build, a 16' x 48"Tatman. I am trying to combine some hich tech materials such as the urethane finish we discussed. Based on my experience with S-Glass instead of E-Glass. The interior of my floor just got a layer of 12 oz S-glass laminated to it. The interior of the sides has 3.7 oz S-glass and has epoxy on the outside also. I have Clear Coat epoxy coming tomorrow morning so that I can fair the epoxy on the sides prior to finishing. I will oil the oak gunnels, knee brace and seat parts.

 

I had lost my copy of Roger Fletcher's book until a couple of days ago. I reread some of it and found my next boat to build, the light board-and-batten that Veltie Pruitt built in 1928. I fell in love with the idea of building that in the traditional way with plywood like Roger suggested rather than board and batten materials. I have been sourcing materilas in my spare time. I have found a source for the Western Yellow Cedar. My father in law has a large pile of bridge timbers. I don't know but hope they just might be Doug Fir.

I agree with that much of modern furniture is constructed from throw away materials. However I keep finding occasional examples of quality products made with quality materials. I spent ten years around the cattle industry selling electric fence energizers. The cattlemen that raised "commodity" cattle were always complaining about the state of the marketplace. Those cattlemen that figured out there was a place for quality beef sold directly to the consumer were much happier and so were their customers.

when I recently took a load of trash to the local waste to energy transfer site I looked around at the piles that our throw away society left there. The amount that passes through there each day was amazing, I don't remember the amount but it was amazing for just one third of Spokane County (400,000 people). all these thoughts are depressing, time to get back out to the shop, the sanders, epoxy and routers are calling! With luck and dedication it will be on the McKenzie River next Saturday. Pictures soon. I am preparing the boat in sub-assemblies so I can reduce the finish time.

 

Have a great day. I really enjoy building boats and the discussion of the methods, materials and concepts.

 

Rick Newman

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