Dry Rot in Frames

Hey folks, tonight I discovered some dry rot in the bottom of three of the frames on the Keith Steele I am restoring. I've been searching the forum for about an hour now looking for the "well documented" procedure that AJ DeRosa has created for repairing such problems but cant find it anywhere. Maybe it's the heat gun and paint fumes. 

So... anybody got any advice on how to repair or replace these the correct way? If this has been covered a jillion times can you point me to a good thread?

Also, I really need to find some POC but am striking out. I live near Boise but don't mind a moderate road trip. Can anybody offer any advice?

Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by JAY STRUGNELL on August 24, 2015 at 9:46pm

Post a few clear pictures,we love pictures,even if it is real bad looking the comments will help someone else have enough confidence to dive in. It can all be repaired. Try clicking on AJ's profile then look at his early photo's; good luck.

Permalink Reply by CWarmouth on August 24, 2015 at 10:13pm

Here ya go... There is not much to see. Plywood and chine logs are rock solid. Just some rot along the bottom of the frames...

Permalink Reply by JAY STRUGNELL on August 24, 2015 at 10:33pm

Doesn't look that bad in the pictures,if the bottom is solid and the chine logs are good,I think you may be able to remove all paint, wet the bottom frame members with thin epoxy, then fillet with thickened epoxy.Make sure not to close off the limber holes. look at Rick Newmans early photos too.

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 25, 2015 at 6:09am

It may be time to sand off the paint in the affected areas and get a real close inspection. An ice pick will be a helpful tool that can tell you things that your eyes cant. Have you flipped the boat over and inspected the conditions and the screws there? Get us us some pictures of that area. If there is dry rot present at the bottom of the ribs then it will be present further into the frame. The spores travel into fresh wood and will be present until it is removed. Since we can't see these spores it is hard to know when to stop cutting. Not saying you need to remove your ribs but you may have to. Can you get to the screws that hold the frames together? It is possible that you can remove the screws and make replacement parts. If you need some ideas on removing the screws because the heads are buggered I can offer some suggestions on that.

What is ultimate goal of your restoration?

Here is the link to some information on inner chine logs, dry and such. AJ chimed in here, perhaps it is the series of posts you were looking for. There are 36 pages of links to posts or series of posts that AJ's name is listed in so it can be time consuming to look through all of them. Having been here for a few years helps. I think I have read every post ever published.

Rick N

Permalink Reply by CWarmouth on August 25, 2015 at 7:59am

Thanks for the responses so far guys. Please keep them coming. As far as goals for the restoration, I have another thread started (Drift Boat Project #3) that gives a little more detail. My primary goal is to do it "right". I have the tools and the woodworking and fiberglassing experience to do whatever needs to be done. I've built or refinished most of the furniture in my house, have built a few boats of different types, make laminated wooden longbows and arrows, and have made fiberglass plugs, molds, and parts for street rods and one drift boat. Having said that, I don't pretend to know everything and don't necessarily want to reinvent the wheel when it comes to making repairs. I have never attempted to replace or repair frames like this. If there are best practices that others have discovered, I am all ears. Y'all are the pros and I am eager to learn what has been discovered over the years. I am in no hurry to get the boat done. I am not looking for the quickest patch to get it on the water next week but would rather make repairs that will last another 40 years. If I can get it on the water next July I will be happy. I hope to make it as close to how Keith Steele originally built it, but I am not morally opposed to making improvements like stainless fasteners, adding a back seat, glassing the entire outside, perhaps adding a storage shelf under the deck, a Bo's anchor system, etc. I expect to use it 10 or 12 times per year and to take a couple multiple day camping trips in it. The rest of the time it will sit in my garage in arid Boise.

I'm some time off from repairing the frames, but want to start getting my mind around what is necessary right now. I am currently working on getting the boat stripped to bare wood and assessing the overall project. 

I have probed the wood on the frames with an awl. The rot is (predictably) in the frames closest to the center of the boat (nearest to the rowing seat) and worst around the limber holes. The wood is fairly crumbly and bad at the bottom of those frames and gets solid about 1/3 of the way up. It seems to me that removing the entire bottom frame pieces and replacing them would be the best bet. The challenge for me is A. finding Port Orford cedar to build new ones, B. figuring out how to remove them without damaging everything else. They seem to be nailed together with ring shank nails, not screws. I'd especially appreciate advice in this area. Alternately, if there is a better way to make the repairs I am open to just about any option. 

No, I have not turned the boat over yet to inspect the bottom fasters. The inside of the floor is rock hard though. On the bottom there is a 1/4" plywood skid shoe covered in gluvit. It is screwed on. That skid shoe is solid with no visible sign of rot and hardly even any scratches. The oak chine caps are rock hard and perfectly undamaged. The aluminum protection is dented in one spot but otherwise not even scratched. It seems like this boat was not used all that much. Most of her issues seem to primarily be simply matters of good-ol' aging. I can totally relate to that.

I'd love to hear your method for removing buggered screws. I normally drill them out if the heads are stripped.

CW

Thanks again guys for any feedback you might have to offer.

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 25, 2015 at 8:14am

CW, sounds like you are on the right track. Ring shank nails can be defeated quite easily. Do you know what a cat's paw tool is? A splayed foot pry bar, man come from Japan. I call the smaller version of this a kitten's paw tool. A short time on your grinder will provide a sharp edge that can be inserted between a rib and the plywood. A tap or two on the head of the tool and the nail's grasp on the wood is defeated. Did you know that you can nail in some of the ribs on a Tatman kit several incorrect ways? That's how I learned to defeat ring shanks!

If you can break their hold you can remove the offending wood, save it to make a new one. Here's a link to www.woodfinders.com where they list wood sources state by state. You may have to go to SLC to get Port Orford Cedar or Alaskan Yellow Cedar. Edensaw or Bear Creek Lumber in Washington state may have some too.

I think you are on the right tack.

If the bottom is screwed into the frames, which would be most common then a recip saw will be your friend. Gluvit is tough stuff so you should be okay there.

Rick N

Permalink Reply by CWarmouth on August 26, 2015 at 5:57am

How would spruce work as an alternative to POC for frames? Steve Steele mentioned to me that his dad sometimes used it for interior parts on boats.

So what actually happens when the grasp on the wood is defeated? Are you separating the frame from the plywood a bit so that you can get a grasp on the head and then pull it out, or something else? (Nail breaks, rings strip through the wood, etc.) And would this tool work?

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 26, 2015 at 6:18am
Way too big. I will find a picture and send it. You are simply cutting the nail with the sharpened end.

Rick
Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 26, 2015 at 6:46am

Here's a link to the Takagi 'Shark Grip' Cat's Paw tool I used to sell. I sharpen the end to a knife edge. Silicon bronze ring shanks break quite easily when you cut them off. I would then tap the head back through the plywood and leave the remainder of the nail in the rib. You can then remove the rib, use it for a pattern and either put a new nail in the hole, patch the hole with some epoxy, or just leave the heads in place if they are in the bottom of boat.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/834354/SHARK-8-PRY-BARNAIL-P.aspx?...

Rick

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 26, 2015 at 6:56am

Spruce is not noted for it's resistance to rot. See this article:http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Rot_Resistance_of_White_Pine_...

However the possibility of rot long term depends upon how you prepare it and maintain it. An epoxy encapsulation will help until a break in the epoxy occurs. Any luck with the Woodfinder web site?

Rick

Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on August 26, 2015 at 7:21am

You have energized me on finding more info on rot resistance. There's a great one on: www.softwood.org. It is a pdf so you can download it and look at it.

Rick

Permalink Reply by David Witton on August 26, 2015 at 7:53am

A friend from Bend was able to get a quote on POC from Orepac. Perhaps a call to lumber yards there would work.  I wasn't able to get any here in eastern Idaho from that wholesaler.  

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