Wooden Boat People
By McKenzieDriftBoat.com
Stitch and glue drift boats
Views: 3247
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on
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Teryy, I don't think that you will want that boat. Tell the guy that you will deliver to a friend in Washington State so that he won't have to suffer any longer with his S & G boat.
Not really, but of course if you want to you that would be okay! I have no hands on experience with stitch and glue boat but anecdotal stories one another web site suggests that they are very strong. In my opinion so does a framed boat. I think that a framed boat has considerable charm and beauty, and strength, especially when clear finished. both styles can be beautiful, strong and appropriate for many applications.
Just what kind or style of floating do you do? Class I, II, or III? What are your boating skills like? How well do you read water? What kind of damage have you done to your present boat?
When I sold canoes canoes one of the most popular questions that was ever asked was something like "just how tough is this canoe?" It was rare to hear just how well does this canoe paddle? How easy will it be to paddle, load on my car and maneuver? Sure an aluminum Grumman type canoe is almost indestructable but they are very heavy to load, tougher to maneuver, and a pig to paddle.
After people had tried out a few canoes, lifted them on and off a few vehicles and trailers and spent a few hours paddling they had a new appreciation for what characteristics were important.
So what I am saying is that pure strength is not the most important characteristic, perhaps after you take a look at the S & G boat you will come to appreciate its' charms. It might prove to be very desireable for you.
Rick Newman
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Permalink Reply by lhedrick on
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I you are interested in learning about stitch and glue construction, this is not really the place. For the most part builders here are building classical framed boats. The is somewhat of an art form and the boats remain beautiful for years if they are cared for. Their is a long history which suggests that a framed wooden boat will last a lifetime.
Stitch and glue is really more of a composite construction with wood being the core material. The core may be foam or other materials.
You will find more information about stitch and glue can and ask questions to builders at:
montana-riverboats.com
I have been involved in building may stitch and glue drift boats, whitewater boats and sea kayaks.
Both framed and stitch and glue boats are more then up to the task so there really is not much point in comparision or a discussion of which is stronger. Modern aircraft are being built with carbon fiber and fly just as well as aluminum aircraft. In many cases what makes one item better than another is fabrication cost. Of course, that's not my view but to some cheaper is always better.
L
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Permalink Reply by Terry E Walsh on
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Thank you! I am completely ignorant of the stitch and glue drift boat.
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Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on
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It was never my intention to have framed boats be the centerpiece of this forum. It has evolved that way because many on this forum live on the west coast or are history nuts like me. Lets see if we can come up with a reasonable answer to this worthy decision of SnG or Framed build. The worry of a new builder is that they choose one method over the other without knowledge that they might gain later and then wish they had changed their decision at the start. New builders should be able to understand the differences between the two construction types in relation to how we use the boats on rivers. Let's have a discussion to help them make a choice with confidence.
I want to start off by calling out what I think is personal preference stuff that we really don't need to debate because there is no mistake to be made. You just decide what you want to do because you like it.
- SnG is sleek, clean, and modern looking while framed boats are classic or even retro.
- You can use any materials you want with either building method.
- You can also build any length, width, flair, or rocker with either method.
There are two distinct differences that could affect the way you use your boat on the water you float most often so lets try to center the debate along these two thoughts.
- The framed boat has a sharp chine log and chine batten attached to the frame while the SnG boat has a rounded chine made strong with fiberglass and fillet.
- The SnG boat relies on bulkheads and/or thwarts for side stiffness while the framed boat stiffness comes from the frames.
Larry please jump in as the advocate of SnG.
Sandy Pittenburg also please jump in. For those that don't know, Sandy is a member here and is the owner/webmaster of Montana-Riverboats.com
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Permalink Reply by Jonathan Clarke on
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My only experience in boat building relates exclusively to one framed drift boat kit. I love the results, but on the other hand, I have a friend whose commercially produced SnG I readily acknowldege is undoubtedly a thing of beauty and I don't think I have any particular prejudice about either style. I do wonder about some things, though. For example:
Which method of construction will generally produce the lighter boat? I know that weight isn't the be all and end all in performance issues, but I don't like carrying weight around in any circumstance.
Would it be true to say that it takes better woodworking/carpentry skills to build a framed boat from scratch than a SnG? It seems like you could hide a lot of sins with fillets and glass.
Going the other way, how much skill at fiberglassing does it take to turn out a nice looking SnG?
I guess those questions get down to this: Which is more difficult to build?
Which boat requires more regular maintenance?
Which boat would have greater overall durability in ordinary use?
And one on the water performance question: What about the sharp vs. rounded chine?
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Permalink Reply by Lawrence E. Long on
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Jonathan: The framed boat is more difficult to build. Compound bevels on frames.inwales, outwales etc are not easily done-if you want them to fit. The S&G fits are not as demanding of accuracy - as you say the sins can be covered with epoxy/wood flour fillets. I know there will be all manner of hell about the last statement. Don't try to cut frames after a glass or two of Merlot- you can fillet epoxy under those conditions. However, getting a finish on FG/S&G can be hard to do or take forever depending on your skill and equipment. It has been reported some guys have spent $1000 or more on finish work. Jason is the master at S&G- as is Sandy. The framed boat probably requires more maintenace- but if you oil the interior its not that bad.- Randy and the pros usually do it this way.
Just one mans opinion- for what its worth- Good Luck
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Hmmm, I think the answer to your bottom questions are probably arguable what ever the answer.
One construction method doesn't have to be lighter or heaver than the other. The materials you use and the size of the boat have more to do with overall weight.
Which boat is more difficult to build? I think they are about the same but experience with templates on a table saw is what makes a frame boat easy. Experience with fiberglass mixing, pot time, and additives is what makes SnG easy. Without that experience the "chemistry" can seem mysterious, but it's not Both can be easy once understood and the best way to understand is to jump in.
Overall durability in ordinary use I think also depends on the water you want to float. A SnG boat can be very strong and the wrapped and filleted corners with bulkheads or thwarts will hold the boat together better if the boat is swamped. A framed boat has 1 3/8 of of solid wood on the chine. It can take a HEAVY rock hit. Some argue it is harder to repair the framed boat chine than fiberglass. Some argue that fiberglass needs to be repaired more often. I think it's about a wash.
On the water performance is affected by the length, width, flair, and rocker of the design. Any dory shape that you want to build can be built with either method. If two boats of the same hull shape are built one with SnG and one with frames you will notice a difference in on the water handeling. A boat with a rounded chine will not have chine dip. It will cross an eddy line easier. A boat with a hard chine will track better which means will hold a line, ferry better, and will help prevent sliding sideways on a big wave if stalled. A framed boat will dip on the chine when one side of the boat is in an eddy and the other is not. I don't think one is better than the other. I do be believe that you should match the performance you want with the water you row most often.
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As a SnG builder I would completely agree that building a framed boat requires more skill. The cutting of the frames is a different skill then glassing a joint. All the angles need to be correct.
SnG building is really quite easy. It just gets slow at times with all the mixing and glassing and of course waiting for epoxy to cure.
I grew up with framed boats. My father built boats in the late 50s. That's how I got started. I will say I prefer not having all the frames in side. As for strength, it's not really worth a disucssion as both types are proven.
The outside chine as Randy stated has a behavior that everyone should be aware of in big water with powerful eddy lines. I don't see many on the Green at low flows but on a Grand Canyon trip you will see them every day. When these flows hit the hard edge of the chine it drives it down hard. It you need to take a hard ferry angle below a rapid to make a campsite it can really grab you. I have heard stories of boats going over when people have been caught off guard and slid to the low side. Even the smooth sides of a SnG boat will be driven down in this squirrely water. Converging flows can surf you all over the place. It takes some time to adjust to it the first day or so. It's a matter of learning the bahaviour of what ever you will be rowing.
As for weight I have a feeling a SnG boat might be a bit lighter but not enough to make any difference. The SnG method works the same with plywood, honeycomb or foam core. I don't know how these composites would work with frames since the cores are too soft for screws.
I guess this really isn't a framed boat site as much as it is geared to all wood construction glassed or not. Most posters seem to be fisherman and whitewater people. I for one would love to see more posts of classic all wood power boat also.
Fiber glass and epoxy is very easy to work with after your first day or so. One thing to remember is to always clean up runs or edges before epoxy cures. 5 minutes now or 1 hour tomorrow sanding. Get a good carbide scrapper. Cut down high spots with a scraper before sanding.
I can't say much for performance issues. I row all kinds of stuff rafts, cats, dories, drift boats they all are a bit different. I will say I don't like pulling the oars on a soft raft and not having the thing respond. Framed or SnG the hard hull of a dory is more to my liking then any raft. I would advise learning enough to be ready to take the oars of anything. People get tired, injured etc so everyone needs to be able to get boats down river no matter what hull or oar setup. Please,,,,,, lets not start the oar lock war again.
L
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I sure do agree that learning to row well and to read water is more important than any boat design issues. Get out and row a bunch of different boats, even different dory shapes and sizes. You will form a preference pretty quickly and it will make you safer on the water.
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Permalink Reply by Dave Barnes on
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As a newbie boat builder, I was concerned about ease of build and the ease of walking around in the boat. I ended up using a hybrid design, a hankinson 14' where you make 3 temporary frames to which you attach bulkheads for the center section of the boat only. There is an outer and inner chine - are these not present in S&G? A number of boat building books point out that much of the strength comes from the tension in panels, not from the frames they attached to. I can vouch for this. I taught a couple of river novices to row (after all, I want to fish too), and we hit some pretty sharp rocks pretty hard right at the common point of impact. I chipped the epoxy/graphite finish along the edge, which I had to patch, but otherwise, the boat had plenty of strength. It seems to me that nothing is preventing you from installing a chine log on stitch and glue if it's not part of the design, no? That is where point-of-impact strength would be very handy. That would be my main strength concern.
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You are at the point where the difference comes into play. One design locks the bottom to the sides with glue and glass fiber, the other with screws and wood strips. The framed boat has a strip inside and out which covers the seam where the bottom and sides come together. It is not glued. Sealer is used to keep water out. Screws go through from the outside locking it all together.
With SnG construction we glue the bottom down onto the sides. Then we cover it with up many layers of glass fabric. On a White water boat I often used 6 layers with 2 of them being special heavy bi axial fabric which has it's fibers oriented in a way to make them stronger. I then use 2 more layers inside. All total it's 8 layers and well over 1 inch thick. The idea of a wood strip like on a framed boat is not really an alternate solution with SnG construction.
Randy's previous posts shows an image of a framed boat joint with glass covering the side/bottom joint sealing it off from water before the chine cap goes on. I guess you could just add 5 more layers of glass and glass the inside between the frames, but that's not the historical why it's been done and we know what works in the framed methods.
The strength of the chine on a SnG system is enourmous. If you do smash a rock hard and do some damage, it's easy to fix. Just patch it to get home then in the shop dig out the soft spot and build up some new layers. Many of the changes are evolutionary in that new materials have come along allowing us to build with different techniques. My father used the old purple resorcinol glue, a powder and liquid mixed together. It may have been the first water proof 2 part glue. Today we use epoxy or 3M 5200. New materials have given us options. With the demands on wood, the quality is going down and the price has gone up moving me to try more composite materials.
I am not making the claim that one system is better the other. I have already said both boat designs have years of proven history. It's the difference between the friction of a few hundred screw threads holding things together as apposed to the molecular bonds of millions of small epoxy bonds.
I get annoyed with the claims from the molded commercial builders with regard to the matinence issue they bring up regarding wood. A SnG boat is completely covered with glass fiber and epoxy. The wood is the structural core material. A painted SnG boat is no more maintenance then a molded glass boat and there is one fact they they won't challenge us on. Wood/glass/epoxy is lighter. Molded boats are build from sprayed polyester resin with chopped glass strand/ heavy glass fabric and mats. The materials are not as strong as wood fiber so they need to use more material to compensate. The don't use epoxy because it's too expensive. You won't find a molded fiberglass boat in the Grand Canyon,,,, ever!
SnG or Framed you will have a better boat then any polyester/glass boat which comes out of a mold.
L
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By the way, saw a Montana Boat Builder driftboat at the Fly Fishing show this weekend. What a thing of beauty!! There is a lot of skill required for that kind of epoxy finish work.
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