Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Eric Loudenslager on October 17, 2013 at 3:42pm

I've made a pair of Alaskan Yellow Cedar oars, with laminated blades but without laminated shafts, and a Port Orford Cedar/Redwood Greenland paddle that was laminated.

I would go laminated.

If you are building Culler style oars, are you going to have a square upper section to balance then blades? You could use a different material for that section.....just glue it on.

Also, since you say you are a noobe to woodworking, have you figured out how to make an oval or round shaft from square stock. A good source of general information on the topic is Canoe Paddles by Warren and Gidmark.

When building oars, I have found the transition neck from blade to shaft to be challenging to cut and shape. On my next set of oars I plan on a 2" or 2.25" square full length shaft (laminated) that I will add material for the counter balance on the loom, cut the shaft side taper, then add the blade laminations.

For the taper down the blade face I rough it with a 6" Grizzly benchtop jointer, finish it with a #7 jointer plane, and then round or oval with a spoke shave. I use about a 4' taper section and the rest is straight.

When shaping the shaft I use a spoke shave and then scraper.....no sand paper at all.

Do a search on this site. There have been a few discussions and pictures of oar construction.

Enjoy your project

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Permalink Reply by Casey H on October 17, 2013 at 6:04pm

I use about a 4' taper section and the rest is straight.

Is that to avoid gluing to an angle. I cant figure out if straight is mandatory or just traditional or simply because wood is not usually tapered.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on October 17, 2013 at 3:52pm

I am making some presumptions on the strength of oars required for your Avon. I rowed an Avon Spirit loaded to the capacities you mentioned for several years on the Lower Main Salmon River. Occasionally the load would increase if I carried any passengers. we used aluminum carlisiles with pins and clips. I never broke any but I could see them bend. I rowed a heavy Avon pro on the Middle fork and used heavy Smoker Oars with similar diameters to what you mentioned. I didn't break those either but did see them bend a considerable distance when one was momentarily stuck on the bottom, it was almost bent in a C-shape and shot away from the raft very quickly, it was a very quick release of energy and it sprang from the oarlock downstream. They were heavy, beastly oars but were certainly strong. 

When I compare the characteristics of White Oak to Sassafras I see some similarities, close but not as strong as the Oak. I also question the rot resistance as I could find nothing on that in my brief research. I just rebuilt a pair of Sawyer Oars built from CVG Douglas Fir that had suffered from rot because of trapped moisture under a rubber tip protector. I too only use oil on my oars. Fifteen days of use per year with appropriate storage should preclude similar damage.

Since most oar lock systems favor a shaft which is circular in cross section I would assume that the added complexity of making part of the oar round and the other part oval could be bothersome, not impossible, just more work. Since there isn't much information that I can find on Sassafras versus Oak, Hickory or Douglas Fir I would lean towards as big a shaft as I could get by with. One area that I could not find info on was resistance to impact. Almost all the other woods on the chart were rated and Sassafras was blank. Does that mean that they have exceedingly poor resistance and can't be rated or they didn't test the Sassafras? Have you ever beat up, bent, used something made of sassafras to see what limitations you can find? If impact resistance is poor what would happen in normal handling? Would impact create a stress riser that will break at some point in the future when you most need the strength?

I am in favor of a laminated oar because of the potential to reduce warping that a single piece of wood is subject to. Do you have enough to try a simple lamination to see; how does the wood hold up to bending and impacts, what glues work with it, how does it take an oil finish, how does it compare in strength to Oak, Hickory, Ash or Laminated Douglas Fir?

Good luck with the project.

Rick N

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Permalink Reply by Casey H on October 17, 2013 at 6:26pm

Do you have enough to try a simple lamination

Not without buying more. I bought all the best 10' stock. They still have lots of 8' boards. I suspect if this goes well I will be going back to get more for a paddle.

to see; how does the wood hold up to bending and impacts, what glues work with it, how does it take an oil finish, how does it compare in strength to Oak, Hickory, Ash or Laminated Douglas Fir?

But from what I understand (i.e. learned on the internet) it compare very favorably in all categories. I read specifically it glues well and is very rot resistant/durable.

This all stared because I am cheap and I knew I could "hack" 3 oiled oars for $50. I looked up suitable woods and was leaning towards spruce or fir. Then I read sassafras was once a highly desired oar wood (before ash took over) but has virtually vanished. The story made them sound magical. Then I noticed some 50 year old boards in stock. I figured it was an omen. Now I am in for the long haul and money is not an issue (within reason).

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Permalink Reply by Casey H on October 17, 2013 at 5:55pm

Thanks for the quick response.

Sassafras wood characteristics are almost perfectly between Western Red Cedar and American White Ash. I put them below. The key is the flex! It has the flex of spruce, but its stronger while being 3/4 the weight of ash.

I have heard it described as the missing link between Ash and Maple. It is reported to be as water resistant as Cypress and White Oak if not in contact with the ground. It was a premier oar wood at he turn of the century but forest management techniques don't promote the production of suitable boards anymore. It is supposed to be a dream to work, glue etc. I read a quote, " the only poor quality is the need to pre drill screw holes"...then he said, "is that a flaw".

My idea of an oval neck comes from the prediction that the blade/neck transition would be hard. This seemed easier. If I did that, I would start the taper cut at the 44" mark so I can leave a square loom and round section for the leathers.

I think I may have explained my laminating ideas poorly. By that I mean, will be laminating stock for the shaft no matter what. My laminating options involve the blade.

I could cut a full oar with blade and laminate the scrape to the top and bottom for the shaft but not add anything at the blade (I like this plan because it seems like a lot less shaping and gluing and it is pure sassafras)

or

Cut out 2" strips first. Laminate them together. Then add the blade pieces. The reason I like this idea is that it would allow the "blade fins" to be a lighter wood (adding to the balance & beauty). And I can avoid all/most of the arch grain.

As for the idea of adding wood to the square loom I LIKE IT. However, if I need 2 1/4" round at the oar lock it defeats the purpose. If I can settle for 2" then perfect.

Does anyone see a problem with the idea of adding strips to the shaft (like the flex would pop them out) to achieve 2 1/4".. I think this is how pool cues get their pattern but IDK for sure.

I also forgot to ask if 10' is really needed. It seems like every inch shorter would help the balance a lot.

As for tools. I have no idea. I am lucky to have a 16,000 sq ft shop that I can rent by the hour or month. Its some kinda of shop club...like a gym membership for tool people. I will do the planning and joining there and the the sanding/shaping/oil at home. I suspect they have everything and can lend guidance. To be honest about the oval, I figured it would just be easier to "hack". I am not apposed to using a belt sander (but I suspect I should keep that quiet in this crowd). I am admittedly just a riverguide not a craftsman....but I am trying.

Thanks again.

Common Name(s): White Ash, American White Ash
Average Dried Weight: 42 lbs/ft3 (675 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .55, .67
Janka Hardness: 1,320 lbf (5,870 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 15,000 lbf/in2 (103.5 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,740,000 lbf/in2 (12.00 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 7,410 lbf/in2 (51.1 MPa)

Common Name(s): Sassafras
Average Dried Weight: 31 lbs/ft3 (495 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .42, .50
Janka Hardness: 630 lbf (2,800 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 9,000 lbf/in2 (62.1 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,120,000 lbf/in2 (7.72 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 6,600 lbf/in2 (45.5 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 4.0%, Tangential: 6.2%, Volumetric: 10.3%, T/R Ratio: 1.6

Common Name(s): Western Redcedar, Western Red Cedar
Average Dried Weight: 23 lbs/ft3 (375 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .31, .37
Janka Hardness: 350 lbf (1,560 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 7,500 lbf/in2 (51.7 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,110,000 lbf/in2 (7.66 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 4,560 lbf/in2 (31.4 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 2.4%, Tangential: 5.0%, Volumetric: 6.8%, T/R Ratio: 2.1

I got the info at

wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/sassafras/

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Permalink Reply by Dave Z on October 17, 2013 at 7:39pm

Don't overthink the design.  Balance the weight, length for you and materials, worry less about taper is my opinion.   Sass is fine wood.  I do have concerns on your laminating and no use of a hard finish.  What are you planning on using for glue?  Turn your grain on the laminations for the blades.  I believe the Culler oar drawings might show this for a laminated oar.

I've built oars from Pine, ash, pine/ash laminate, spruce, sassafrass, cypress both solid and laminated.  I've always laminated with epoxy and finished them with a good spar varnish.  Oh and all mine have no taper to the shafts.

It might be obvious, but wood quality is the most important for a solid set. 

For what its worth,  my favorite set of oars are pine with ash laminates from end to end.  Light, plenty strong for what I do and cheap.  I won't cry if they are damaged. I'll buy another 2x6 and build a new set.  I don't stick to even lengths, I build them long and then I screw with the length on the river and take a hand saw.  My pram oars turned out to be 7'3" (cypress)for the tight rivers, and 8'2" (pine ash)for the bigger stuff.  In my 16' I like 8'8" (solid ash)oars all the time.

Good luck with your project. Save the sassafrass shavings and soak them in water.  Fire up your charcoal grill, buy a brisket and use the wet sass shavings for smoke.

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Permalink Reply by chris towles on October 17, 2013 at 8:19pm

Sassafras is the perfect wood for shafts. I have used wooden ww kayak paddles for a number of years. These things get beat on, bashed against rocks, and survive incredibly well. Sassafras is the key wood used in the construction because it is light, rot resistant, strong, but most importantly... Flex! You will not find a sweeter smoother feeling wood out there. Strokes like butter. If you get an oar caught, these things will bend into a c before they ever break. They have an amazing amount of spring to them. The best ww paddle builders will search out the best sassafras. One friend of mine... The venerable Jim Snyder, Arguably the best paddle builder in the world.. Will go out with the logging companies and go head to head with baseball bat manufacturers and the like to search out the best sassafras. He buys in bulk and then stores and dries the wood for several seasons. You can check out his website preferred modes if u want lots of paddle building wood discussion. It's a good read... and Jim is a master craftsmen, boater, historian and really knows his stuff.

Ill add this, Jim builds laminated paddles. He always uses sass on the stringer thru center of the shaft but most often uses ash plates for beefiness and strength. For the blades, he uses laminated hardwoods like walnut or black cherry for their stuff need and durability. I have never heard of sass being used anywhere other than shafts tho. Jim also uses a hardwood often maple as a bang plate at the very end of the blade.

I'd add that if they were my oars I would glass the blades and varnish the shaft. I would also use dynel at the blade edges as a wear inhibitor. This is all pretty standard fare for ww kayak paddles, but I have used them long enough and hard enough that I believe this construction method is the way to go. I have smokers that are just varnished, and they are pretty torn up on the blades and areas that once got wet and were weakened have cracked and chipped off. If they were glassed I don't think they would have worn like they did.

Anyways just my .02. If had many sassafras shaft paddles in my day and can say for sure it is an awesome wood. Love to see your progress, keep us updated

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on October 18, 2013 at 5:55am

well you learn something new everyday. It sounds like Sassafras would be a good wood to use. I may have to go and find some!

Rick N

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Permalink Reply by Eric Loudenslager on October 18, 2013 at 8:00am

Regarding taper - Optimally an oar will be nicely balanced. You want enough weight inboard of the oarlock so you don't need to exert much effort to push down on the oar to get it out of the water, plus pulling against water etc. This requires removing material from the blade and shaft to reduce weight. Remove to much and the oar is weak and perhaps too limber.

Culler type oars use a square loom section inboard of the oarlock to add weight to counterbalance the shaft and blade outboard of the oarlock. Blades are tapered. You can extend the taper to the end of the blade or all the way to the grip. I used 4' based a Culler schematic I found somewhere. I think it was published in Wooden Boat years ago.

The shaft can certainly be oval. The shaft thickness in the blade face dimension will be critical for strength when pulling on the oars. The shaft thickness in the blade edge dimension will experience less stress and can be reduced in size.

For this reason I tapered both the face and edge.

I laminate because the oars will warp and twist less over time, and laminated blades will have less splitting. Laminated shafts permit use of wood with less than perfect grain runout.

On the oars I built the blades were laminated with epoxy. On the Greenland paddle the shaft and blades were glued with Titebond III. Both the oars and paddle were varnished.

A good source of information on oar design is: Oars for Pleasure Rowing: Their Design and Use by Anddrew B. Steever. Mystic Seaport.

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Permalink Reply by Casey H on October 18, 2013 at 9:27am

Wow! Thanks again for all the input.

Lots of questions to address so here it goes.

What are you planning on using for glue?

I have read that waterproof epoxy is the way to go...other opnions? 

I do have concerns on your laminating and no use of a hard finish.

Me too...lol. But I suspect that since they will not get much use this should not be an issue. I can give them a fresh oil coat after every use since they will hang for a few weeks minimum between uses. I like that I can add oil any time any where.

I will probably keep some in my gear box for on river dents and scratches and takeout recoats. I plan to use a tung oil limonene mix for the base coats and walnut oil for extra coats. I am basing my desicion to do this on the fact that Sassafras is already fairly rot resistant. But this restricts the use of other woods in the lamination. If I laminate the blades I will almost certainly use Poplar and then expoy + spar on the blades. If solid Sass I want to go pure oil. I can always add something over the oil, maybe Watco. I have been reading about finishes for a weeks and it appears to be a discussion like sports, religion and politics.

wood quality is the most important for a solid set.

I think the wood I got is really nice. The edge grain is perfect. I still don't have an answer on "arch grain" in the center. In Cullers designs he uses only the straight grain fro the edge. BUT I read somewhere that the "arch grain" was great for the center layer of the shaft lamination (I think that was in a paddle discussion not oars). You are correct the Culler oar drawings show this for a laminated oar but its( / \ /) as opposed to ( / - \ ). I hope everyone understands that. Its Cullers VS Mine respectively (the - represents the flat arch grain).

In my 16' I like 8'8" (solid ash)oars all the time.

Is that an inflatable 16'. That sounds really short for a 16' raft. Although I must admit after 13 years of guiding and rowing countless oars from Carlisle to Cataract to Old wooden of every type...I have never paid any attention to their size or shape. As a guide, you use whats in the barn and like it (or keep your complaints to yourself).

The venerable Jim Snyder

Is he one of the Snyder Brothers from WV / PA area. I have meet Jeff several times when I was guiding in West Virginia. If so, those guys are legends....I bet they make a mean paddle.

Eric Loudenslager

I am glad you mentioned Culler and Greenland in the same post. When I said, I wanted a modified Culler what I meant was I like the square looms of Culler but love the Greenland Blade. This is what I am going for.

The shaft can certainly be oval. The shaft thickness in the blade face dimension will be critical for strength when pulling on the oars. The shaft thickness in the blade edge dimension will experience less stress and can be reduced in size.

Would you be willing to speculate on the actual sizes. I plan to take the standard size round and "move" a 1/4" to the other side. If 1 1/4 round is good, then I will do 1" x  1 1/2. I suspect 1 1/2 round is smarter (thus 1 1/4 by 1 3/4). This is the dimension I can't find anywhere.

　

　

　

　

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Permalink Reply by Rojo on October 19, 2013 at 9:48am

10' sounds like the right length for that size raft. That's the length we use with our Maravia Williwaws (sic?). We use the 16' designed raft but custom ordered them 2' longer to hold one more box (commercial outfit). We run 10' Smoker oars on them.

I do question the oval shaft. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you guys, but I wouldn't want the shaft ovalized where the wrap goes through the oar lock. I find that I often spin the blade if it catches a funny piece of water, and I want the oar to spin smoothly in the oar lock. 

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Permalink Reply by Casey H on October 19, 2013 at 10:34am

Are you using 10' oars on a 16' or 18' raft (2' longer). I think you mean its 18' but only   wide as a 16'.

The shaft will be round at the oar lock. Beyond the lock, I considered doing an oval taper.  I like the idea because the blade is oval...thought it might be easier to shape. If not no big deal.

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