Anybody ever flip a framed dory?

Hi Everybody.  Let me just start by saying that I love reading this forum and am always learning new stuff, thank you all for sharing your expertise!  One thing that I haven't found much info about, however, is what it is like to flip a drift boat in the rapids.  Now, I know that this is clearly something that one should avoid, but as I become more proficient on the oars, I want to begin to row more challenging water.  As an individual who favors being prepared, I am trying to get an understanding of how this will go down, should the worst come to fruition and I find myself in the drink.  It seems that there is lots of info about how to right a raft if it is flipped and there is even specific gear for it (fliplines, flipbelts), but I cannot find similar info for drift boats, let alone wood drift boats.  First let me tell you what I am rowing.  It's a basic 16ft framed drift boat built from a Tatman kit 3 years ago.  The bottom is asymmetric and there is not any dry decking built in.  Now, I hear that many dories are self-righting, but I assume that those are the ones that have dry decking built in for whitewater use?  I have also heard that many dories, if rolled, will sink.  Is this also true of a wood dory, or will the wood be buoyant enough on it's own to at least keep the thing near the surface?  Is it worth attaching flip lines near the oar locks if I'm heading out on challenging water, or should I assume that if I flip, that's pretty much it for the old River Rambler (my boat)?  Have any of you ever rolled your drift boats in challenging water?  Thanks for sharing your experience with us, hopefully it will help us all be prepared for the worst while experiencing just the best!  Cheers,


Greg Max

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Permalink Reply by Kelly Neu on August 23, 2010 at 9:50pm
Here is a video link to the technique listed above... minus a fat person. enjoy :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/kneu2#p/a/u/0/ev-iZ1dUZxg
-Kelly
Permalink Reply by Brant Jaouen on August 23, 2010 at 10:08pm
Awesome!
Permalink Reply by Brant Jaouen on August 22, 2010 at 7:02pm
I remember reading this thread prior to our incident flipping our boat in the South Fork this summer. I guess my wife is in the Martin/Dersham camp and I remain in the Fletcher camp, since she was at the oars when we capsized. My boat has two water tight compartments on either side of the oarsman's seat. I believe that the boat floats while capsized, since it cruised down river upside down with my friend Ali on top. However, the South Fork is shallow and there was damage to the bow and stern at their tips (no transom on my boat). I guess it was a combination of floating and dragging. In any event, once the boat was grounded in shallow water, it took three of us to flip it back. We all stood on the same side and just lifted it until it was back upright. At that point, the boat was about 80% full of water. The key to fixing that problem without endless bailing was dragging it into very shallow water (inches), then tipping it back onto one gunwale and literally pouring the water out. That worked great and left only inches of water in the bottom.
Permalink Reply by eric stevens on August 22, 2010 at 9:57pm
What did you hit ? You got to give us the full story of how it happened. thanks
Permalink Reply by Brant Jaouen on August 23, 2010 at 8:38pm
Permalink Reply by Adam "Dutch" Gottschling on August 26, 2010 at 9:48am
I completely destroyed a Ray heater 17' 54' in West water canyon Utah. This was back in 2008 and the boat has since been rebuilt. Some of you might remember this boat at the McKenzie show 2 years ago. It was the one with pieces of the wreak in front of the rebuilt boat.

Ive been slacking in signing up to Randys site untill this topic popped up. Will figure out how to post pics of the wreaked boat and the rebuild project.

Advice to open wooden boat runners..... Pay attention, Dont flip. Its impossible to bail out a boat with no shore to pull up on. I found that out as we cut the boat free and watched in ROLL down the last rapid on that stretch.

I hope to be able to post the pics soon.
Permalink Reply by Greg Max on November 1, 2010 at 3:25pm
Hi All!
Thank you all for giving some excellent advice in response to this question. I have greatly appreciated the insights that have been shared and was able to learn quite a bit from all of your experiences. I kept the old River Rambler upright all season and got her out on roughly 20 overnight river trips. Only hit one rock all season long and it was just a small sleeper buried just under water, so we slid right over it. From what you all have told me here, it seems that if I flip my open framed drift boat, I can pretty much count on it sinking. Because of this, it seems that there is only one thing that I can do to get my white-water fix. I'm going to apply for a permit to run the Grand Canyon and start the process of building a Briggs-style boat to run it! Any feedback on the permit process or the Briggs boat would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again to you all and I'll hope to see you afloat on the water someday soon!

Greg Max
Permalink Reply by Kevin C. on November 2, 2010 at 9:31pm
Oh lordy, I have'nt been on a discussion for a while but this one caught my attention...we picked up a well worn framed drifter 2 years ago while attending Randy's show on the Mckenzie and I spent 200 hours mostly solo restoring it last winter.Perhaps some attendees remember this wreck at the show in 2009 with alot of rot in the transom ( kicked a hole in it at the show).I returned it to the Mckenzie this past spring fully restored and with a new lease on life(blue paint job)...then I decided I would take it down the Middle Fork of the Salmon at 6+'....BIG mistake! within the first 10 miles of a 170 mi. trip I lost her to the raging torrent...while attempting to line thru the far left of Velvet my assistant in front(no wood boat experience) missed the rope throw to shore and I found myself setting up for a right maneuver around the huge rock river left. While attempting to row with a 70' line wrapping my right oar we immediately took on many gallons in the very first lateral off the rock,squared up for the left side of the velvet hole and ran the corner of this massive wave.This filled the boat to within a foot of the rails but I was still upright.I began to pull with all I had to the left bank and instructed my passenger to pull in the throw line.This proved to be another mistake as he shifted his weight to the star rail,filling the boat to the very brim.(In retrospect,my instruction should have beenBAIL,BAIL,BAIL!)I continued to pull river left to catch the safety eddy there but we just missed the bottom end of it and as the boat pushed up against the cliff,over she went...I swam/clung to her for a mile and a half ,through raging ,flood stage ,40 degree water,trying everything to get her flipped right side up..to no avail.I held on through 2 good holes and lots of raging froth,at one time realizing that damn 70' of rope was wrapping around my right leg.Hypothermia,shock and some minor abrasions began to take their toll and as I neared the left bank I made the sensible desision to abandon ship and I swam with all I had left to the left bank where I clung with kung-fu grip to rock cliff and luckily pulled myself out.At this point I realized that I had just cheated death and someone upstairs was looking after me...I scrambled over incredibly treacherous terrain for about 20 min. until I found the pack trail on the west side of the river...no sign of the boat ,or my gear;alone,separated from the rest of the group,cold ,hypothermic,in shock and nothing but my wet suit,my Alta ball cap and lifevest to claim in the Wilderness of No Return.At this point I ran into a guy who was hiking back to the ranger station from a wreck the previous day,he gave me some water ,a juice and some peanut butter crackers which felt like winning the lottery.He had also informed me that he had pulled a LARGE bag from the river a 100 yds down.This turned out to be my week supply of beer I had stowed under the front deck to serve as my " passenger weight".So there I was ,no boat ,freezing my ass off and 100 beers ....within 10 min. the rest of my gang came along and picked me and my beer up and we emergency camped at mile 9.The desision was made in the morning that I would continue on (fortunately I had put my sleep kit and cot on another boat before launching from Boundry Creek )and I jumped on my friends 18' maravia.Within 2 miles we found the boat ,upside down,lodged on a gravel bar.After an epic rescue mission to retrieve the boat to shore I was able to recover 90% of my gear and scuttle the destroyed boat.Everything from the oarlocks forward was gone to the floor,shredded by the river.Fortunately I had secured my load in the rear through the weep hole in the floor and all was intact.I stripped the boat of everything salvageable and continued on all the way to Riggins.Many mistakes were made by me on this ill-fated trip and in retrospect many seem obvious,namely,as Roger stated ,Row within your means...I foolishly assumed I could maneuver an open framed dory through the middle fork at 6' +,I had no experienced mate to help bail,I was'nt wearing a dry suit,I had too much weight on board,I was floating with a flotilla of rubber boats,which proceed down river much quicker and I did'nt stop to realize the consequenses if disaster were to happen.I had secured a thwart under my rowing seat and stuffed foam noodles under al the floor boards for floatation but these things don't do sqwat if you flip an open dory in a fast moving river.Although many of these posts describe techniques for flipping a boat back over ,none will do any good if the current has a hold of your boat and if you are able to at least get the boat upright, realize it'll be so full of water ,your beam will be under the surface and its very difficult to bail a full boat when the river itself is pouring in over the rail.The only method is to get the boat to shore and dump out enogh to be able to bail the rest.If,or I should say ,when I attempt this again it will be in a well designed hatched ,self-bailing dory with competent crew and favorable river conditions.I assumed because of the maneuverability of these dories I would be able to avoid the dangers and bop through any frothy water and rapids....not so ,just ended up making an ass of myself...but at least I survived to tell the tale.Expect the worst on ANYwater,rig to flip and make sure you're with someone whose ready to do the same.NEVER underestimate the power of the river and ALWAYS underestimate how you'll deal with a situation.
Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on November 3, 2010 at 8:12pm
Kevin, great story, glad you made it through your experience. Not everyone is so lucky. The Middle Fork can kick your butt. If and when I get a chance to float it again it will be with the lightest, most maneuverable non-water-taking-on boat that I can build or find. I don't swear much but on my trip down the Middle Fork at similar water levels I had three rapids rating comments that my passengers reacted to. the worse the swear word the more they knew to bail. They saw more of the floor of the raft than the scenery!

Thanks for sharing your story, nothing like real life story to make a point about making good river running judgement and planning.

Happy Waves to You,

Rick Newman
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on November 6, 2010 at 3:22pm
This year I got to make my first trip down the Middle Fork. It was about 3.2. I decide to leave my dory at home. I worked a raft with a friend. By noon we had 2 holes in the bottom. With a bad shoulder my parter turned the raft over to me. The water was coming in as fast as we could bail it out. From 1 until about 4 when we got off the river I worked my ass off. By the end of the day I could hardly move the boat any longer.

Day one of the Middle Fork was the hardest day I have ever had on a river. 4 trips down the Grand Canyon seemed easy compared to that part of the Salmon. I can't imagine how you managed such a swim at 6 feet without a dry suit. While there we got a story from another boater who talked of a kayaker who had a 10 mile swim. If that's true there are some amazing stories out there.

Our trip was in early July. I remember seeing an abandoned Green dory on river left and I think it was on day one. Any chance it was your boat.

L
Permalink Reply by Kevin C. on November 6, 2010 at 7:45pm
Most likely mine,although it was a blue hull. Of course there was'nt much left of her and could have been mistaken for green as you tried to navigate that first day or two.I destroyed it on june 10 and four of my buddys went in on july10 or so and salvage /burn the remainder as well as cleaned up lots of river debris and even aided in a rescue .They ended up receiving much praise from the river rangers for their efforts and even assisted the rescued group down by rowing one of their rafts out after one of the group's oarsmen was injured in the flip . You are correct in stating that stretch,even at 3.2' is extremely technical and is far more difficult than the drop-pool experience of the Grand.The first trip I took down the MF was in a bail boat and we encountered the same type of senario as you with a tear about day 3 or 4 and it was very exausting ,to say the least, until we could make the appropriate repair.The second time I ran that stretch I was in a car wreck in Craters of the Moon area on the way there and ended up going anyway with a bulged disc in my lower back and a fractured vertabrae around L5 or 6 (unknown at the time).I rode in a bail boat that time too and will never forget the experience due to the pain and torture of having to get up each morning and continue on...muscle relaxers and pain meds were my friend on that trip but barely enough to get me through.Needless to say, that river has kicked my ass every time but I keep returning in hopes I'll have a pleasant trip and really get to enjoy what is argueably the most wild and adventurous stretch of river in the lower 48...if the horse kicks you off,evaluate your mistakes and get right back on...those experiences have given a new meaning to me for the "river of no return" but I'm too hard headed to keep from going back.My choices next time are sure to be more conservative for a river that challenges the best of boatmen.
Permalink Reply by Robb Sipler on December 24, 2010 at 6:54am
Kevin,

Good to hear everyone survived your MF wreck. We saw the boat on river left for the first three trips or our season and wondered about the real story. Thanks for telling it. We just assumed it was a high water Velvet Falls crash. Day one always gets our full attention at every level but especially above 4 feet and below 2 feet. The MF got at least three boats this season and made a mess of a few others. Hope you'll give the MF another go at a better water level. It's my favorite river to boat and I can't wait to get back there..........

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