Wood

I had a plywood question I buried at the end of another discussion, then figured I would start my own thread with it and a couple other questions.

 

My soon-to-be wife and I are building a Briggs boat. We're going to build it ribless, using foam or honeycomb for the floor and bulkheads, and wood for the sides and interior.

 

It's difficult to find suitable marine plywood in Salt Lake. Macbeath carries Aquatek meranti which I've read on here isn't a suitable alternative to Hydrotek. They also carry Okoume which I used on my last boat, but it is expensive and brittle. I asked if they could bring some Hydrotek in with one of their regular shipments from CA, but with shipping it will come out probably more expensive than the Okoume. Then the salesman said something which surprised me, that the Hydrotek has the same cores as the Okoume, just different veneers. Is that true?

 

If building frameless with the sides sheathed in fiberglass and epoxy, would exterior grade plywood from the Home Despot or Lowes be a reasonable alternative for the side panels, if they are glassed before bending? Could save me considerable amounts of money, unless of course they fail.

 

Also, for the stem - my choices are cvg doug fir, sitka spruce (Macbeath says "boat grade available"), eastern ash (how does it compare to Oregon ash?), white oak, etc. which should I choose? Thanks in advance.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by justin nicola on February 11, 2011 at 3:34pm

i wouldnt use lowes/hd exterior plywood if i were you.  you want a solid core plywood, regular exterior will have gaps inside.  go in the yellowpages (or ask around) and find a good cabinet maker.  call him up, and ask him politely where he gets his plywood and wood.  chances are, the place he gets his plywood will stock marine plywood, or if not, they'll have some solid core plywood.  as for the stems, i wouldn't use spruce or fir.  the ash and the oak are harder, and the stems are bound to whack something at some point.  as for east vs. oregon, i haven't the faintest. 

sidenote- my brother lives in SLC and im flying out there tuesday to get my ski fix (i live in the "lowcountry" in charleston SC) for the winter.  he has lived there for 8 years or so and may know where to find marine ply.  ill ask him and post it if i learn anything.

Permalink Reply by Jeremy Christensen on February 11, 2011 at 4:50pm
I ended up ordering some Hydrotek through Macbeath for almost 50/sheet shipped, beats almost 100/sheet for Okoume. Hopefully they send me some decent sheets.
Permalink Reply by Dave Z on February 13, 2011 at 2:31pm

Take a drive.  Man, its a great excuse for you and the wife-to-be for some road trip excitement.  Surely you can find it within a few hundred miles?   I'm in a similar situation- I have to drive about 300 miles to get marine stuff, but its worth it, they have EVERYTHING. 

 

I wouldnt use 6566 aquatek.  Hold out for a source for BS1088 Hydrotek or find some 1/4 Fir. For S&G and glass inside and out, I would think AB marine fir would be the best option.

 

 

Just read your reply-  I pay $32/sheet and they are all the same.  I went through a whole pile and literally, they were consecutive sheets and all beautiful.  Depends on how well they handle em- hopefully they don't bang up the edges too bad.  You should be good.

 

Inspect it when it comes in, and make them discount if they are banged up.

 

Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on February 13, 2011 at 6:38pm

Hydrotek prices vary quite a bit depending on how far they have to be shipped.  Obviously a retailer will have to account for the shipping cost on top of their price.  So, the closer to either NY, LA, or Seattle the less expensive it is.  

 

At $32/sheet of 6 mil David you are getting it right off the boat.  It's pretty normal to see it around $42/sheet for 6mil and $50 to $55 when you hit the inland of the US. 

 

My experience has also been the same as David where sheets bought from the same unit will all match; however, Sandy and I have seen some strong color shift from one unit to another.  It can run from mid brown to dark brown but never as dark as sepele.

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 14, 2011 at 7:19am

We have enough wood supply warehouses here in Salt Lake for hardwoods, flooring and basic sheet goods are in reasonable supply with market prices for builders and cabinet box shops who use any quantity.  Being in a dry state with but a few mountain lakes we can count the wood boats on 1 hand.  As for the guides who work the fly fishing section of the Green they run 95 percent molded glass boats.  There is just no demand for marine woods here so we get hit.

 

Macbeath hardwoods has all the basic North American woods as well as just about anything you could want.  East Indian rosewood, ebony, zebra wood even pink ivory and  the list is endless but, have you cash ready.  This is one of the reasons I have been using composites.  10 years ago they had Hydrotek and while it doesn't have the look or ply count of okoume  for painted work I like it.  The only way around this is to buy 20 sheets or more and then we need to store it and the money is out of commission when it could be earning 8 percent in the market.  We also take the risk of 20 sheets of junk being handed to us.  I have found that the okoume sheets with the Lloyds sticker have always be good quality.  The 3/8 is 7 ply.  I have not found any fir other then basic home building supply stuff which is 3 or 5 ply and full of voids,

 

For those who build 1 boat, they just grit their teeth and fork over what Macbeath demands.  For whatever reason they also don't seem very interested in their customers.   While I don't like doing business with them I still do on occasion.  All the others in the shop I work in will not set foot in the place.  So, I don't really know who their customers are other then a few carvers who work on very high end wood.  They may do enough business over the years to command some respect.  Driving 800 miles round trip for few sheets of plywood doesn't work out very well.

 

We are kind of stuck here. There is no demand for wood yachts cruising around the mud hole of the Great Salt Lake.

Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on February 14, 2011 at 9:55am

Larry, why do you say the Hydrotek doesn't have the ply count of okoume?  That is not true. 

Hydrotek is BS1088 and has the same manufacturing standards as the Joubert Okume which is BS 1088 and is also Lloyd's registered.  Here are the specs

3 mm (1/8") - 3 ply
4 mm (3/16") - 3 ply
6 mm (1/4") - 5 ply
9 mm (3/8") - 7 ply
12 mm (1/2") - 9 ply
15 mm (5/8") - 11 ply
18 mm (3/4") - 13 ply

 

There is no doubt that Okume is a more uniform color and the Lloyd's register is a tighter quality control of paid inspection which ads to the price.  Hydrotek can have variation in color and pattern of surface veneers. 

 

My issue with Okume is that it is lighter weight (that's good) but it is much softer than Hydrotek.  I would not recommend using Okume in 6mil for a drift boat unless both sides have fiberglass.  The Kayak guys often use 3mil and then glass both sides for a very light weight and strong boat. 

Permalink Reply by lhedrick on February 14, 2011 at 1:57pm

Randy,  I didn't mean that at all.  On the ply count I was just referring to the home building fir stuff.  I guess it came across that I put the hydrotek in the same class.  Didn't meant to do that.  I was just talking about the okume I have worked with.  I used hydrotek one time when I could not get okume.  For a clear finish I don't think it looks as nice but I was satisfied with it and will use it again.

 

Macbeath operates out of California and Salt Lake.  Seems like hydortek should just come in on the truck along with all the other stuff.  Their costs are almost the same as finding another supplier and paying freight.  They just don't want to cut us any slack and our other sheet goods suppliers say the don't have access to it as they are Salt Lake only suppliers and deal mostly with cabinet grade sheet goods.

Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on February 14, 2011 at 5:01pm

Ahhh, I misunderstood you.  I agree that Okume always has a very clean and consistent look and there is no doubt that the Lloyd's Register insures a much tighter level of consistency. 

 

I think that the five ply to three ply swap for marine fir was in 3/8 not in 1/4 but I'm not completely certain.  I'll do what I can to find out.  I live in one of the fir plywood capitols of the world so you would think I could find someone that knows for sure.  We will also have some old boats at the show and I'll try to see if I can document a 1/4 inch panel with five plys. 

 

That is just for fun info anyway sense three ply is all that is available today in 1/4in.

 

 

Permalink Reply by Sandy Pittendrigh on February 16, 2011 at 5:43am

Hi Jeremy:

 

One question worth asking is "Why would you use wood for the sides and interior?"

Why not build with honeycomb core for everything? ...sides, lockers, seat tops, everything.

 

Building that way is a bit more involved. So that's one argument against it from the getgo.  But it isn't that much more involved. And the cost differences are not significant either.

 

Wood is heavy. So that's an argument in favor of getting rid of it. The same square area of honeycomb core covered with "just enough fiberglass to make it stiff" is lighter than plywood covered with glass (you've already made the decision to build ribless). The best performing boat will ALWAYS be the lightest boat that is still stiff enough not to flex under normal use.

Others might argue against that claim (that lighter is always better).  But I would argue they (those who might dispute that claim) don't really know. Because heavier is all they really know.  Any boat anybody has ever rowed always performs better with only two passengers, as compared to three.  That's because the two passenger load is upwards of 200lbs lighter. Take 200lbs out of the hull and you get the same performance boost, without getting rid of the third passenger. Now take away the third passenger and you can really fly.  Powerboat and sailboat builders have known weight was the number one way to improve performance for ever. Why wood it be any different for drift boats?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Kevin C. on February 16, 2011 at 6:42am
...beauty over function...
Permalink Reply by Sandy Pittendrigh on February 16, 2011 at 7:08am

...that's the answer I was fishing for.

 

:=))

 

One caveat:  for any boat part that gets painted anyway, then beauty is taken out of the argument because--once painted--there is no way to know what lies underneath anyway.  My old hardwood floor finishing buddy from Billings MT (Pius Geiger) used to vacuum bag 1/32" hardwood veneers over 1/2" balsa core, inside a polished female mold he made himself (originally based on my Honky Dory). His boats looked like they would weigh 1500lbs or more....because at first glance they looked like 5/8" thick solid hardwood. But in reality they were light as a feather.  And Pius' boats (like the molded balsa core boats I built back in the late 1980s) were amazingly fast on the oars.  So fast you had to row one to believe it. 

Pius used to love to put in at the After Bay dam on the Big Horn, on an extra-busy weekend day in summer when the trailer queue would be up to 30 boats long. He and who ever he was fishing with would carry his boat down to the water, each guy holding the boat with one hand while carrying a cup of coffee with the other.  Then they would stand there for a minute or so, at the water's edge, chatting about fishing, without bothering to put the boat down, grinning like fish eating dogs.

 

 

Permalink Reply by AJ DeRosa on February 16, 2011 at 1:12pm

I guess the title of this thread, WOOD, is important to most of the members of this forum. 

 

I play bari sax in a big band here in Jackson Hole.  We play the old book of 40's swing music.  The music is out dated but is an American classic.  I always remind the members of the band that our mission is to keep a bunch of dead guys alive.  Goodman, Miller, Kenton, Basie, Ellington, to name a few of the heros of a bygone era.  Our audiance may be listening to the latest pop stars but our renditions of the classics is something they appreciate and enjoy.  After each performance people come up to us and thank us for keeping the music alive.

 

I think I can speak for many of the folks that visit this forum by saying that we are doing the very same thing here.  Our heros are Hindman, Ostrem, Steele, Pritchett, Briggs, Helfrich, Pruitt, Kaarhus.  These are the folks who invented the drift boat.  The popularity of the style is undeniable as it has been copied in fiberglass, aluminum, rotomolded plastic, and now in pure honeycomb plastic.  Nothing wrong with any of these boats because each speaks to a specific need for each boat user.  While none of these have gained status as a "classic",  each and every wooden boat that is turned out is a representative of the true classic, the wooden McKenzie River Boat  As good boat building panels are getting harder to find we do find ourselves looking around for alternate materials.  Honeycomb plastic is one of them and I am sure that some may move in that direction.  As that begins to become popular there will no doubt be a Plastic Boat People Forum.  I hope it happens.  As for me, I'll probably still be playing the "old book".  In spite of it's many flaws, wood is where it's at for many of us. 

 

Sandy Pittendrigh is another of my hero's.  As the evolution of drift boats and the ways to built them continue to evolve Sandy is at the cutting edge.  He was one of the first to recognize the needs of the intermountain angler and changed seating arrangement of the traditional west cost steelheaders boat to a hull that would trim with anglers seated fore and aft.  He was building "frameless " boat before they called it stitch and glue.  Now he is breaking trail on inovative techniques in honeycomb panels.  His forum is now the center of the universe for those innovative folks who have left wood behind and are now going in a new direction.  I monitor that site and always come away with new ideas.  At one time that was the only site available to home builders and there was often misunderstanding as techniques for one building type got mixed with the other.  There are many carry over techniques but what's good for one is not always good for the other.  Confusion reigned.  We now have a site that is dedicated to the preservation of the frame built drift boat.  They may be heavy, harder to build and have bottom issues but there is still a strong following.

 

So,  as I have said before, newbies beware.  There are several schools of boat building out there and the passions of the builders are such that they want to share their ideas.  This is good.  The beware part comes when these ideas begin to cloud the direction of the technique of choice.  Understand and become comfortable with the process of the particular technique and you will be able to sort through the advice, most of which is good, and decide if it's good for your particular project.  That's what I do and it's made me a better builder.

 

I hope Sandy comes back and posts his website.  It is a site that we all should visit.  There is some really cool stuff going on over there.  And then you will all be able to visit with that guy wanting to build a wooden boat who has stumbled into the site that is using space age materials and technology to continue the evolution of the boat we all love.

 

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