Wooden Boat People
By McKenzieDriftBoat.com
Restoration or new build
Hi all I have a few questions for you. I have been wanting to start a new build on the Rogue Dory in Rogers book for a couple years now. Recently I ran across a Rogue River Special and trailer for a couple hundred bucks. It is a bit smaller than the Dory in the book but the 16ft length would suit me better anyways. This RRS needs some repairs and love. It looks like it was a homemade boat and the tag says 1973 on it so does have some age. At the minimum it has one chine log rotted through and the chine log and will need to scarf a piece of ply at the same spot on the side panel. The frame at that spot will also need replaced. The bottom has a hole where they damaged it and didn't fix the glass on the bottom so rotted, rest of the bottom seems solid. I would want to replace the gunwales on this boat, and replace a few of the other frames just for asthetic reasons.
Opinions on if this boat is worth saving or should I start over? How hard would it be to build new of this boat as a model? What would be the easiest way to get the dimensions for the side panels? I would probably care a bit more if this was an actual Briggs built boat but it isn't. Its not in horrible condition but some of the wood work ie chine log notches on the frames or sloppy. I do like the design of the boat though and would want to replicate if I can. Opinions. I will try to get some pictures tomorrow if I can. Thanks. Thomas
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on
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Thomas, lots of questions and lots of answers for you. It sounds like the romance of repairing and rebuilding your drift boat is part of the project. That's wonderful and can be a major element of boating. Examination on a closer scale might show more damage. Water is insidious and when combined with the right environment will transport the rot bacteria much farther than you think. So either sanding down everything or poking and prodding will reveal more.
How much time and effort to you want to expend to revive the old gal? Patches can be made in the plywood with lapped joint, see some of the post that AJ and Dutch did several years ago. Use the included search function on the top of the page.
Chines, frames and frame logs are also all replaceable. However you might find that a previous owner has done some unusual joinery or used a rather tough adhesive, especially 3M 5200. Saws, knives, putty knives, chisels, Fein Tools, Recip Saws, belt sanders, etc are handy to have.
Keep any parts you remove to use to make the replacement part. Bevel gauges are handy tools too. Alaskan Yellow Cedar, Port Orford Cedar are wonderful woods for the frame members. Ash, White Oak, Mahogany have all been used for chine materials. Marine plywood that is free of voids is important to use to keep rot at bay.
Epoxy and Titebond III glues are useful. Brands of epoxy are debated all the time, check on here for some of the discussions. I live in Washington State and use www.fiberglasssupply.com has been good to me and the freight is better than the East Coast. They have a complete selection of fiberglass, tools, epoxy and such. Jamestown Distributors is on the East Coast and has epoxy, fiberglass,and hardware, silicon bronze nails, stainless steel screws and such. They often have free freight.
Roger Fletcher's book, Drift Boats and River Dories is an excellent resource. Buy it, read it and enjoy. Roger discusses building your own boat and documents the steps required. He is a wonderful guy and knows his stuff!
Start with some of these ideas and see where you end up. I have been building my boat from a Tatman kit that I found four years ago. They are no longer in production, Don Hill boats still makes kits for framed boats. I enjoy the building as much as I enjoy the rowing and fishing, even though I haven't been out in mine yet I still find ways to get on the water.
The neat thing about this activity is you can pretty much do it the way you want to. Do you want a "working boat" or a "beautiful" wood boat? Does it have to be perfect or just "good enough" to get you out fishing and enjoying the rivers? Only you can decide!
Rick Newman
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Permalink Reply by Thomas Hood on
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Rick, thanks for the reply. Yeah I've done quite a bit of research on building a boat and have gathered some materials such as some beautiful Old Growth Port Orford for framing lumber and started buying some plywood. My original plan was to build the Rogue Dory out of Rogers book knowing that it is a bit larger than what I actually want. The boat that I found and purchased is closer to the 16ft that I would prefer for running a little more technical water. The boat seems to be solid besides the couple areas mentioned. My questions are since this is a homemade boat is it worth restoring? If not how hard would it be to model a new boat off this one? I'm pretty sure that I could get this thing going again with minimal labor but I don want it to look nice when done...so will need to put quite a bit more sweat into the thing to spruce things up. Another plan was to do the repairs on the boat, use for a model boat and sale it after completing my new boat. The only part of building the new boat is what is the easiest way to get the dimensions for the side panels? I am going to start poking around on the boat this weekend and remove the chine caps to see exactly what I am looking at. Thanks for the info. Thomas
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Took the chine caps off and everything looks pretty solid except for the one spot mentioned before. Its a little larger than my hand and will need to be cut out and replaced. I have attached some pictures, after taking the chine caps off it is looking like restoration may be the way to go pending some paint removal.
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A couple more.
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Permalink Reply by Phillip Westendorf on
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Thomas,
Your plan to restore the existing boat and then building a new one has lots of merit. The Lofting issue isn't too difficult. First thing you need to do is understand what is Lofting. There's a ton of information out there, you just need time to go after it.
Go to Wooden Boat Forum and "search" the word "lofting". I got 313 hits.
Here's the site: http://forum.woodenboat.com/search.php?searchid=2710679 This is a lot of looking but you'll learn a lot by just skimming through it.
The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction has a chapter on Lofting, Chapter 16, it does a good job of explaining Lofting and "How to do it". learning the terms is half the problem.
Another Book, available, amazon.com is Robert M. Steward's Boatbuilding Manual, Fifth Edition.
http://www.amazon.com/Boatbuilding-Manual-Robert-Steward/dp/0070613761
GLuck,
Dorf
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Thomas, if you are aware of Roger's book you are already in good shape. I have been amazed at what I learned each time I reread his book. Rebuilding your boat with the little amount of damage in my opinion is worth it. If for nothing else worth it for the education of understanding how the boat is put together. Secondarily actually using it will provide some further education on the boats and enjoyment of the river.
Your boat was probably made from a 16' sheet of 4' wide plywood. It was not uncommon for "McKenzie River" drift boats to have their panels laid out with a diagonal line running from 22" at one end of the panel and 26" at the other end of the panel. When cut out two identical panels are formed. The bow and stern angles can be determined from published plans (Roger's), another boat, or......from a model. Check out model making in Roger's book, Guy Fredrickson's recent posts or Dave Z's posts. Manila file folders and some tape are handy. An architect's scale will allow you to build the model to a usable size. The hard part of this type of development is finding the bevel angles for the frame members. That's where a set of plans is handy. Sandy Pittenridgh(sp?) shared a picture of his bevel gauge system a few days ago. Bevel angles can also be copied from another boat.
Good luck, keep posting pictures!Rick Newman
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I haven't found too much 'collectors value' attached to who originally built the boat, in the general sense of it all. I suppose an 'original' by Major Powell's men would be worth a lot, but as far as I've seen, the man or shop that actually builds a drift boat doesn't seem to add or subtract much value in any way other than as 'good karma' ...saving an old boat built by ___________(insert the name) matters to the Community, but not so much to a buyer when you go to re-sell it on Craig's List or whatever. The design of the boat has some effect on how desirable it is...some builder's designs are well known as 'good boats'...for example, a Don Hill original is not gonna draw ten times the intere$t as a Don Hill kit boat that was well made...In fact, many production built boats aren't as well done as those built one at a time..
Taking-off (copying---there, you learned your first Lofting term) the older boat's lines to make another new boat is not difficult. The River Dory is a simple boat... I take the lines from boats in about an hour..every nice one that comes around my shop. I use a 'story-stick' to keep the lines and to build from later, should I ever get around to it...... I make the story stick from a piece of pine a bit longer than the boat with all the stations and dimensions marked along the Stick. If I do a second boat from the lines I can just 'tick off' the pieces and placement of them, using the Story Stick, and I don't even need a tape measure..much.
Having the older boat nearby as an example is also handy...You can avoid the mistakes the first guy made. As posted by others here, you will want to get an understanding of the Lofting process from a bit of reading before get serious.
I also suggest just taking some string, a few straight 'battens' (there, your second lofting term) some big fat masking tape and some soft lead pencils out to your shed and messing around on the old boat....I built my first dory (a copy of an Eastside 14' glass boat) without even knowing what 'Lofting' was....the dory shape is very simple. I just used some string and levels and my head to get enough information to build a few frames, then I bent on some battens and got the shape right and away I went with the cedar strips I used on that one...
Each 'station' (another lofting term) in a dory really has just a few points you need. Where is the bottom? Where is the chine? Where is the gunwhale? You need the location of these side to side and up and down. That is all...You also will need bevels at the frames (at what angle do the sides cross the frames?= "bevels"), unless you use Epoxy and fillets.
Probably just confused the hell out of you..sorry. Really, it is not that hard to copy the shape of a dory boat...
It IS hard work to properly restore an old boat...as you will discover, you will sink lots of hours into it, but it's quite rewarding.
Or...you can do what many people do with an old dory in poor shape...They start with good intentions but underestimate the amount of work involved They lose focus and then they 'fudge' and slop on lots of glass and goo and use nails and screws from True Value to 'get it on the water'. They row it a few times then park it out behind the garage till it finishes rotting away.
Don Hanson
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Thanks guys for the info. After closer inspection I think I am going to start with restoring the boat I have and then go from there. Everything looks solid just the two spots of rot. I am going to cut out the rot on the side and scarf in a new piece. The hole in the floor is another story. What is the best way to patch it. I was thinking about replacing the whole bottom or cutting a piece of 1/4 ply and going large enough to go in between the frames, and repairing the glass on the bottom? I was thinking if I replaced the whole bottom it would be a lot easier to repair or replace the chine log and the side rot.
One other question....the builder of this boat used crappy nails in the boat. Anyone have a good way of removing them if I want to replace with stainless screws? Sorry I guess I have two questions....what is the best way to remove old paint. Sanding or is there a paint stripper that people like to use for this? Thanks. Thomas
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Permalink Reply by Andrew on
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I feel your pain Thomas. I just finished the bulk of a restoration on a boat that I thought was going to be a quick fixer upper, but found out it was more work than I intended.
The guy that built my boat used drywall screw to hold the sides on, which rusted and broke. I was lucky and was able to remove most of them with a screwdriver bit. If that doesnt work you can also try one of those stripped screw removers where you drill out the middle of the head and then a special bit screws it out.
As for getting off old paint, I went through that too. After sanding the whole damn thing clean, I realized I would be better off replacing the entire sides. If the side are a real mess, I would suggest thinking about replacing them before sanding the down. The nice part is you can just use the old sides as a template. You also have the added benefit of starting with new side panels which you can glass or treat any way you like.
Ill put up some pictures in my blog post to show how it all went down.
Hope it all works out for you.
Andrew
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Thomas, if the previous owner used steel screws you may have some work ahead of you. If they have rusted they may actually be easier to remove. One method that can be used is to make your own drill bit from a piece of steel tubing. Size it so that it will cut out the wood around the screw, removing the screw and the wood it is fastened in. With a Dremel tool or such you can make "teeth" in the end of the tube.
Now that you have a plug removed along with the screw a dowel or similar piece of wood can be glued into the hole and the screw replaced in fresh wood. However this probably won't work well in thin side panels but better in the frames after you have removed the floor. Or you can make new frame members, or you could build a whole new boat.
This is the point that Don Hanson is talking about, where do you draw the line, a basic rebuild with some problems still existing or restoration. I'm sure you've heard that boat stands for "bring out another thousand"!
If you just want to get your boat back on the water patch the bad wood, replace any bad wood, epoxy and fiberglass the outside of the boat and get a few years of use out of it. Will it be pretty, perhaps not, will you be fishing yes! Then take your time and build the boat you think you want. Then repeat the process and build the next boat you think you want and enjoy the journey. You will be amazed at what you learn. I have spent so much time and trouble building my boat to my standards I could have built several. I get as much enjoyment out of the woodwork and finishing processes as using it. To each his own.
Rick Newman
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Rick wrote: Thomas, if the previous owner used steel screws you may have some work ahead of you.
Why do people do stuff like this? Everyone must be aware that steel and water do not like each other...and the steel simply rusts away. When someone decides to 'just go ahead and use "regular" screws or nails in a boat....they are limiting the life of that boat....
Yes, stainless, bronze, even galvanized costs a little bit more but in the Big Picture, the extra cost is small and the downside of not shelling out a few more bucks is a boat with a finite life. Yes, if really well taken care of and never used in salt water a plain steel fastened boat can last 20yrs even....But one with bronze or SS can last 50+ yrs....
And putting in screws and through bolts with no bedding compound or other way of limiting the water getting into the hole where that fastener is......that is so lame when just a few seconds to dip the screw in something before running it into the wood will keep it rot-free for the life of the boat...
I'd venture to guess that most boats that need work...besides sun damage and standing water in the boat for long periods...the next biggest cause of problems is poor fastener choice and poor assembly without thinking about water intrusion.... "Get her done, that is good enough...." Yeah, for about 2-3yrs, probably no problems, but after that? Big problems.
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Rick, he didn't use screws he used nails. I probably don't have to replace them was just wanting to do it if I got too deep in this boat.
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