Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Josh on January 9, 2013 at 6:16am

What plans do you have? I don't see a need for a chine log over a fillet in a stitch/glue boat. The fillet is essentially a chine log. Do you have any pictures of the boat at the stage you are at now? I can't imagine how the side panels could be stitched together and not have created any rocker? The side panels are basically a trapezoid when stitched together create the shape of the boat. I attached a couple pictures below of my boat when I was building it...that plans I used utilized temp frames to help pull the boat together and create it's shape. You'll notice in the second picture with two temp frames installed there isn't any rocker and then after adding in the remaining temp frames the boat started to take shape. I had zero experinece before tackling this boat project. I too was pulled in a hundred different directions with all kinds of different answers/ideas. In the end I just made some decisions and went with it...some were good and some were terrible.  

 

 

 

 

Josh

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Permalink Reply by Joey on January 9, 2013 at 6:45am

Thanks Josh. I have Paul butler plans. There was no mention of a frame at all. I assume that the bulkheads in the plan, when put into place would hold the topsides where they need to be. Only problem is, i want to move the bulkheads for a different seating arrangement. I can tell be the pictures that your topsides have a different pattern to them allowing for rocker when brought together. Below are pics of my boat. One with just everything stitched and one with spacers to hold out the topsides and give rocker.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Z on January 9, 2013 at 8:08pm

Looks like you have rocker now.  That is a neat little boat.  Echo what others have said, skip the chine log on an S&G boat. 

My  blogsite is www.thtchronicles.blogspot.com.  In reference to the paper models.  you'll have to dig through the 2011 archives. 

Good luck, it looks nice so far.

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Permalink Reply by Lawrence E. Long on January 9, 2013 at 6:26am

Joey:  As to the rocker - did the plans call for rocker?  Can't imagine a McKenzie with no rocker.  It sounds like you have stitched the sides to the bottom with iron wire,copper wire or zip ties  but have not yet put any epoxy fillet'fiberglass tape to the side/bottom joint.  The bow and transom are also stitched but not epoxied.  In other words the whole rig is still "loose".   Look at your plan and find the maximum width(beam) at the gunwales.  It might be that you have a flat bottomed boat with nearly vertical sides.  Cut a 2x4  the length of the beam and start to force it into the hull around midships.  It should start spreading the topsides apart and in so doing will develope the rocker as the bow and stern will start to rise.  This may not be your problem but when I built a 17' Tracy OBrien some years ago after stitching it together it  looked like a flatbottomed bath tub.  I called Tracy and he said put the " spreaders" at the gunwales- and shure as blazes forcing them in produced the rocker.  Hope this might be of some help.

 

Where did you get your plans- call them up and find out whats wrong.  Good Luck

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Permalink Reply by Joey on January 9, 2013 at 7:19am

I just sent the e-mail to the builder. In the second picture above i have some spreaders in place and you can see a little rocker is gained versus the first picture with no spreaders.

Thanks

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on January 9, 2013 at 8:21am

Joey, can you describe the conditions on the rivers you plan to float. In other words are they for the most part gentle, slow to moderate speed rivers or are you planning on floating rivers with steeper gradient, moderate to fast water and occasional to frequent rapids. Will you be staying in Indiana or going to Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming, West Virginia? My point is you may not want a lot of rocker, only a medium amount. Rocker assists in the ease of turning your boat to avoid obstacles and hinders straight line travel. Mr. Butler's design may actually be fine for Indiana rivers as well as other Midwest rivers.

Lawrence is once again absolutely correct in his advice to you. As an experiment you can make a scale model of your boat from manilla file folders or something similar. Dave Zilinski has documented how to do this both on these pages and I believe on his web site. Dynamite Payson's books also provide greater details. Also check out Guy Fredrickson's early postings on his build. There are over 400 posts so you need to go back awhile to find his work with the models.

Spreading out the beam and the width of the gunnels and the placement of the "spreaders" can be much more easily accomplished on a model. Since you have built your model to scale you can then cut and paste to determine what occurs and if the results are what you have in mind. Two hours spent on the dining room table with paper, scissors, a ruler and some tape can save you days of experiment and frustration in your garage.

Keep us informed, we love to see pictures of what you are building and help where we can.

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by Joey on January 9, 2013 at 8:28am

Rick,

  I will be floating slow to moderate speed water here in Indiana. I would like to make a trip or two out to Colorado and Montana but those would be few and far between so maybe I will stick with a lest dramatic rocker. I will experiment on paper as you said and see what I come up with. I am a newbie to resin and wood so I am just nervous as to how much pressure can be applied before I make a mistake. Thanks so much for the help.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on January 9, 2013 at 8:55am

Joey, you will do fine. Boat building is a multifaceted learning experience. You will look back on your completed boat one day and reflect on all the things you have learned. You have only just begun, you get to learn about; saws, drills, abrasives, epoxy, cleaning up epoxy, what temperatures work best, how to measure out epoxy, what brand of epoxy, where not to put fasteners, what metals work best for fastenings, what size oars you need, what weight oars you want, where it is best to put additional epoxy and fiberglass or Kevlar and that's just the start!

I am continually impressed with those boat builders that have come before me. When I see what they have accomplished and then try to accomplish the same my respect grows, not linearly but exponentially.

Just keep plugging away, there is more than a couple of books worth of knowledge on this website and hundreds of years of combined experience to draw on. If you run in to a question the search function on the site can be very helpful. If you don't get an answer perhaps rephrasing the question will point you to a pile of answers.

If you break some plywood or lumber it can either be repaired or replaced. Then you get to learn even more. It won't be the end of your boat, just another rapid to be maneuvered through.

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by Joey on January 9, 2013 at 9:15am

Thanks for all the help. This forum has answered so many questions already. Just have to go ahead and get my hands dirty. Again, thanks for all the help thus far!

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Permalink Reply by Lawrence E. Long on January 9, 2013 at 2:07pm

Joey:  Newman has it right- relax,learn and enjoy your work- you will get better each day.  The first boat I built was in 1959 on the coast of Greenland- north of Thule.  Made of US Govt. plywood, and common nails it was seaworthy enough to row around a few icebergs- the Eskimos in 20 ft sealskin "dories" hunting Walrus/Seals thought it was the funniest thing they ever saw.  One of our group traded a few compasses for sealskin parkas, Polar pants and Wallrus tusks.  They were the most happy bunch of guys I have  ever seen- about 6 men to each boat( there was one woman in the party- you figure it out)

Good Luck

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Permalink Reply by Phillip Westendorf on January 9, 2013 at 4:34pm

Joey,

On your question of adding a chine log with the Stitch and Glue Design, skip it!  At his point you'll grow old and have grey hair by the time you get it figured out.  I helped my brother build a couple of stitch and glue Kayaks.  It was a hoot doing it.  There's a lot of articles in lots of places if you Google "Stitch and Glue".

Here's a couple of sites you'd do well to check out.

http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/Stitch_and_Glue/stitch_and_glue.html

http://devlinboat.com/stitchandglue.php

A couple of things we discovered that worked well.  Use copper wire!  While you sitting around doing nothing strip the insulation of No. 14 house wire (solid copper).  You end up with smaller holes to drill and after the epoxy is set just heat it up and it'll pull out nice leaving a small hole that is easily filled.  When aligning the side panel to the bottom use a 3/8 diameter hardwood dowel x 2" long at the point where the wire is.  It'll align the two panels giving you a nicely spaced joint.  Careful not to tighten too much as you can cut into the plywood and cause a fracture in it. 

You'll need to determine the wire spacing, start at 8-9 Inches and see how it "pulls together".  Adjust the spacing as you move down the side panel/bottom joint.

You'll have to add the thicked epoxy between the dowels and do it again after the wires and dowels are removed.  It's more work overall but will give you a good result, besides who said this is a cakewalk,eh.

Keep the pics coming.  G'luck

Dorf

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Permalink Reply by tungsten on January 9, 2013 at 8:09pm

Hi guys,
I am currently in progress of my first build, a McKenzie river stitch and glue. I have been researching this project for several months and been working for a couple of weeks. I have been pulled in a hundred different directions and don't know what to do. Sidewalls are stitched and the inside of the boat has 2 coats of epoxy. I will ask some questions and if anyone can help I would really appreciate it.
1: Would a chine log on the inside of the boat benefit me over a fillet? I was told this would increase strength.

The idea of a fillet is to make a nice inside curve for the glass to lay on,the glass is what gives you strength.Glass doesn't like sharp bends/corners.
2: If this chine log would help, can I use my 1/4" plywood and laminate the chine log?

You could cove a pieace in but it would be very difficult,fillets have been used for decades no use trying to better it.

3: My plans apparently did not call for any rocker. I did not know this until the boat was stitched together. Is there any way to add rocker other than taking the sides apart and re-cutting? I messed around with spreading the topsides to get rocker but this worries me structurally.

Unless you have a perfict rectangle for a bottom there will be rocker.Your sides should flare out at about 22-30 deg from the floor.
4: The plans I have call for one 5 oz glass layer on the outside bottom of boat. This seems light to me so I ordered 5 oz Kevlar for the bottom and by reading on here sounds like I need several layers on the bottom if using 5 oz. Any comments on this?

Pending on what kind of plywood you have but 6-12 oz is the norm for regular use.I'm a little sceptical about the kevlar as i cant find any supporting info on the net that says it has a place on boats.
5: Finding proper lumber for me in central Indiana has been a struggle. If I use cedar and cypress, would I have any problems? This wood is for bulkhead cleats, gunwales and possibly the chine log if plywood is not acceptable. Can I rip a 16’ 2X by myself on a table saw?

I'll let others answer this one.

 

 

 

 

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