Oil Finish 101 ( for stitch and glue guys)

Mark Hilbert's post "What would Dave Do?" has received a very diverse set of responses.  They are most interesting because they come from the full community of builders that frequent this forum.  Responses have come from the guys who build in the traditional frame method and also from the stitch and glue boys. Guys who day trip have chimed in as well as the expedition/ whitewater community.  We all have a very common thread in that we build our own boats but after that things begin to drift apart.  Some procedures are common to us all but some are very specific to methods and intended uses.  In the case of Marks questions about how to repair (or not repair) his fractured bottom panel all responses were appropriate but interestingly biased toward each respondents personal methods or uses.  I'm not suggesting that this is bad, on the contrary, it enlightens us all to see different approaches to the same problem. Those of us who have been hanging around here for a while know who is who and how they build.  Dave is a traditional frame guy and has built and uses boats that are pickled inside and out with a home brewed old fashioned oil/spirits mix.  Larry Hedrick is all glass and epoxy as he should be as a stitch and glue builder.  Dave's light boats go fishing where they might bump bottom while Larry's boats carry heavy loads, punch big waves and perhaps smash down on knarly rocks.  Larry's kevlar might be handy to patch  Dave's fractured bottom panel and Larry could use some of Dave's oil on a piece that is not covered in goo.

LET THE NEWBIE BEWARE

These guys all know what they are talking about in their own world of boat building/fixing.  It's up to you to understand where your advice is coming from and does it apply to your specific problem or question.  The most dramatic example, IMO, is the guy who thinks that truck bed liner is the answer to the leak in his old frame built boat.  In this case a workable idea for stitch and glue hulls is a very bad idea for frame built hulls. 

Now to the title of the thread, OIL Finish 101 for Larry.

Oil finish is only sticky if left to pool.  Properly done, applied with a brush and wiped with a rag there is no excess to get sticky.  The oil penetrates the wood and does not lie on top like paint,  The wood grain remains and is not slippery.  Even oiled floorboards remain a nonskid surface when properly oiled and wiped.  Try it, you might like it.


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Permalink Reply by Scott Hepler on April 30, 2010 at 8:37am
AJ, this is a great teaching moment, and since I love to learn stuff that I will probably never use (I still remember trig in hi-school,) and forget stuff I need everyday, like does the comma go inside or outside a parentheses?
To the question. Why on framed boats do most builders choose not to glass the inside of the panel sections before the boat is assembled? Is it simply because of tradition? Or is it something about the way the boat bottom is attached with the sides?
Thanks for being the arbitrator.
scott
Permalink Reply by Chris Patterson on April 30, 2010 at 3:03pm
Excellent post AJ! Very good information and advice.
Permalink Reply by AJ DeRosa on April 30, 2010 at 4:04pm
Scott,

My answer to your question about why frame builders don't epoxy/glass panels before construction has two answers.
!. Some of them do. It's much easier to glass the inside panel while it is flat. Same goes for frames which are sometimes epoxy coated prior to assembly. A framed boat properly epoxy coated and then painted is probably the easiest maintenance of any. Check Ray Heaters post about this very technique a month or so ago.

2. But it adds much time, energy and expense that cheap, lazy guys like me don't want to bother with. As you know these boats had a proud heritage way before glass and epoxy came along. The early boats relied on expert joinery and a coat of paint. Any paint seemed to work as long as it was some shade of green.

Now along comes epoxy resin and fabric. Is a framed boat built using epoxy instead of hide glue still traditional? Depends who you talk to but the process is the same. I consider myself traditional in techniques but love my heavy fabric/ epoxy/graphite bottoms. Light fabric over panels, especially fir, give a smooth base for paint or varnish and prevents checking but does little in the way of adding strength. Strength in the framed boat comes from the frames. Stitch and glue needs encapsulation to create the strength and make the fillets flow nicely.

Many of the old boats (40-60 years old)that we have restored have survived nicely with out modern coatings. They have incredibly beautiful old growth fir plywood that is a joy to behold, hence our preference for oiled interiors. But in reality it gets back to our lazy nature that allows us to throw away the sandpaper when it comes time to maintane the interior. Slop some oil on a relatively clean boat and then pet it with a towel. Bingo! new boat.

Whether you choose to encapsulte or not the bottom attachment is the same.

So yes, you can have it your way. Make it easy with an oiled working boat finish or spend more time in the beggining and go for the glassy show stopper finish. Depends what you like, chocolate or vanilla, it's all good.
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on April 30, 2010 at 7:24pm
AJ,

Great stuff.

In the past I coated everything in epoxy. I used oil mixes of all kinds and my own mixes on wood work but, not on boats. On boats I epoxy coated everything. Not any longer. I found that no matter what I do ash gunwales will not hold finish. Epoxy and varnish on hard wood is a total pain. A never ending workload of sand, epoxy re-coat and new varnish. Now it's oil only on all hardwood. I will varnish epoxy/glass covered plywood but not the hard wood pieces. The oil is much less work. Once in a while I just apply a bit of oil. No sanding, just a few minutes now and then.

My main question was on bottoms and places where sand will grind in. On a decked over white water boat sand is always grinding away the varnish as we walk all over the decks. Now I paint the decks. I last used high tech interlux 2 part epoxy paint. No more. If a change is needed or a fix is required we need to drop big bucks on that paint just for touchup. It's tough but not practical. From now on it's plain old oil house paint. Like you mentioned, oils often cure dry just like any other finish. So, I guess you could just wash out the inside with a little scrubbing and add new oil. As for plywood, I always use light glass and epoxy to deal with checking. Over time I have gotten so used to working with glass I just don't event think about it. Any plywood gets glass.

While I doubt I will build framed boats, I still want to know all about it. One thing I do know from being around boats all my life starting back east is that water is the enemy. I have seen rot on boats and what happens if it is not held in check. Oil or glass, some work needs to be done from time to time. On our dories and drifters it's not an issue. We float, fish, maybe run a little white water then the boat goes on the trailer. Here in the west our boat dry out after every use. All we need to do is keep the leaves and dirt from collecting, tilt the trailer and pull the drain plug. Our only real issue out here is UV. A cover of any type helps with that one.

One thing all of us understand is the our owner built wood boats will last a lot longer then we will be around. They are not the maintenance problem the commercial molded boat manufactures claim.

As for the oil mix. My last mix for ash and other hardwoods has worked out fairly well. I mix about 1/3 penofin hardwood oil formulation, 1/3 turpentine, 1/3 boiled linseed oil. I then thicken with bees wax until it is like a thick syrup.

Send those oil recipes, I want to try lots of them.

What a place these forums are. Keep it coming and thanks to all.

L
Permalink Reply by Brad Dimock on May 1, 2010 at 12:16am
One technique I've used with good success for the decks of whitewater dories is to use a coat of sand before painting. That is, mask out all the areas where you will not be stepping or abrading--that stuff can stay shiny. The rest gets a very thin coat of rolled resin, then inundation with fine white sand, then a vacuuming and removal of the masking before the resin kicks. Afterward a very thin coat of paint (preferably the same color as the sand) is the final finish. I did this on my Grand Canyon boat in the 1980s and have only given it one coat since, and that's with a LOT of hard traffic. The theory is, if the sand is the same color as the paint, and the only place the paint gets worn is on the top of the sand grains, then the wear is minimal and invisible. Plus, assuming the sand you used was the same color as the sand in the river (easy in a white-sand river like the Colorado), then the decks always look clean even when there's sand and dust on them. As lhedrick notes, using fancy paint is a rag when it's touch-up time. I use exterior enamel and roll it on. And for all the gunwales and brightwork--the oil finish is the only way.
Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on May 1, 2010 at 8:04am
Brad and Larry; while doing some research on Wooden Boat Forum I found a series of posts on called: The Wooden Boat Forum > Building / Repair / Page John Henry... Easy scarfing and glueup. It is quite a document on wooden boat building with value for all. Of particular interest to this portion of this thread was a few posts on treating decks with crushed walnut shells. Very well done with good photos and instructions. The entire series of posts is quite good. Wait till you see the shop the guy works in.

I agree wholeheartedly with the recent comments both on this series and others on the amount of knowledge and thought provoking discussions presented here. I really enjoyed the recent Wooden Boat Festival and the opportunity to discuss many aspects of building and boat design. If you get a chance to view Tom Martin's presentation on the GEM and it's place in history I think you will enjoy it. He is passionate about the Canyon and the small piece of history that human's have contributed during their recorded time on the Colorado River.

Rick Newman
Permalink Reply by Dave Z on May 1, 2010 at 5:55pm
Awesome Post AJ. Your wisdom and ability to wade through and sort us all out is spot on!
Permalink Reply by Steven Miller on May 6, 2010 at 9:34am
I am the "Newbie" so I want your opinions on what oil is best? I am 50% through my first McKenzie. All of the plywood is attached to some sort of frame so i'll guess that mine is a "frame method" boat. I am going to epoxy the oustide with layers of glass but the inside I would like to remain grainy wood and would rather not epoxy the entire inside because it's not as pretty/too shiny for me.

I really don't have as much time as I would like so mixing my own recipe is probably not feasible so what brand/type would you suggest that I could buy at Lowes/HD or order online? The entire frame work is made out of beautifull figured hickory that I have access too so an oil will only make it prettier!
Permalink Reply by Mike Baker on May 6, 2010 at 3:09pm
Hey Steven,
I have had very good luck with Daly's Teak oil. The paint store here locally that carries it recently talked me into trying Watco Teak oil. I am about to use it on the second boat. The first boat has held up well but it is about to go through its first summer so time will tell. I did like the way it went on and it was a little cheaper than Daly’s (about $28 per Gallon).
Mike
Permalink Reply by Steven Miller on May 6, 2010 at 6:25pm
I think I can find that here. Do you think a gallon will do the inside of a 16" boat? I know, so many questions!
Permalink Reply by Mike Baker on May 6, 2010 at 7:10pm
Yes, A gallon should be enough. You should post some pics.
Mike
Permalink Reply by Steven Miller on May 6, 2010 at 7:16pm
Thanks!!

Pics: I have never liked getting laughed at!!

Seriously though I will, I'll go out in the morning and show you where I am and you guys can tell me where I can improve/change/tweak; I'm all about taking advice.

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