Anybody ever flip a framed dory?

Hi Everybody.  Let me just start by saying that I love reading this forum and am always learning new stuff, thank you all for sharing your expertise!  One thing that I haven't found much info about, however, is what it is like to flip a drift boat in the rapids.  Now, I know that this is clearly something that one should avoid, but as I become more proficient on the oars, I want to begin to row more challenging water.  As an individual who favors being prepared, I am trying to get an understanding of how this will go down, should the worst come to fruition and I find myself in the drink.  It seems that there is lots of info about how to right a raft if it is flipped and there is even specific gear for it (fliplines, flipbelts), but I cannot find similar info for drift boats, let alone wood drift boats.  First let me tell you what I am rowing.  It's a basic 16ft framed drift boat built from a Tatman kit 3 years ago.  The bottom is asymmetric and there is not any dry decking built in.  Now, I hear that many dories are self-righting, but I assume that those are the ones that have dry decking built in for whitewater use?  I have also heard that many dories, if rolled, will sink.  Is this also true of a wood dory, or will the wood be buoyant enough on it's own to at least keep the thing near the surface?  Is it worth attaching flip lines near the oar locks if I'm heading out on challenging water, or should I assume that if I flip, that's pretty much it for the old River Rambler (my boat)?  Have any of you ever rolled your drift boats in challenging water?  Thanks for sharing your experience with us, hopefully it will help us all be prepared for the worst while experiencing just the best!  Cheers,


Greg Max

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on June 10, 2010 at 2:49pm
Contact Robb Grubb and see what he says. He does Whitewater Training for drift boats. I have flipped rafts, however fully loaded multiday trips rafts may need to be unloaded first.


Welcome aboard!

Happy waves to you,

Rick Newman
Permalink Reply by lhedrick on June 10, 2010 at 5:02pm
To start I would advise caution with regard to running bigger rapids (class IV) in an open boat. I was on a Yampa trip with flows of 17000 CFS and we saw another open wood boat get really hammered. It was swamped more then once. All our dories were decked. 100 gallons of water weighs 800 pounds. If you know the river and use good judgment you can decide if you can run it safely. On my last trip down the Grand Canyon I took many waves which would have put that much water in the boat and those were on good lines hitting things head on. Fill an open boat and pin it on a rock and you have a lot of work ahead of you. The other issue is the amount of damage the boat will sustain as it hits rocks until it can be lined off.

4 years ago I was on a Grand Trip and on a layover day after many beers we talked about how much work it would be to pull a dory back over. There was a sand bar off the beach with deep water in between. We unload the boat and 2 big guys (over 400 pounds total) stood on the gunwales and pulled it over. It took a lot to flip it. As the side went up it became more stable. It also took the same two guys and a good pull to flip it back over. Fully loaded it would have taken at least another person. The boat was over a few minutes. After it was back over, some water had gotten under the hatch lids. I can't see 2 people rolling a loaded boat back over in the center of the river.

This was a 16 foot framed, decked Tatman with bulkheads. My guess is 450 pounds. It's a much heavier boat then my 14 footer.
Permalink Reply by Roger Fletcher on June 10, 2010 at 7:01pm
Never have flipped or swamped a framed boat. 50+ years ago my drift boating mentor said to me as I was preparing for my first major white water run (the Rogue), There are two kinds of boaters: those who have dumped a boat, and those who are gonna! My goal ever since has been to prove him wrong, to demonstrate that it is possible to go through this life without a major drift boat mishap. So far, so good. And for sure, a dumped boat in our Northwest bony waters will most likely become river litter, or at best in bad need of repair. The key is to run water that doesn’t exceed ones skill level, to exercise prudence, scout particularly difficult rapids, anticipate, anticipate, anticipate, and get and stay in good shape. Robb, Brad, Tom and others can speak to the salvage techniques they employ when a mishap occurs, but for my money the worthy goal is never having to say, Oh, Oh, there she goes! Mark Angel, Oregon’s well known riverboat salvage expert of boats (and bodies) has about an acre of old drift boat wrecks (mostly aluminum by the way) that stand as testimony to what he calls “carelessness on the river.” I truly believe that a drift boat in the hands of a sane and competent oarsman is much safer than traveling to and from the river. 72 and still afloat....
Permalink Reply by mark hilbert on June 10, 2010 at 9:18pm
Nope, can't say that I have yet. But I have flipped a raft. that boat in your pic looks like a beast and you should be good if you take things at normal flows. From the pic I see you run Pimphouse and I'm guessing your asking the question because water is up at almost 6,000cfs. I'd say "check yourself" that hole in Yarmony can get pretty big and I'm waiting til the water comes down to take my woodie throught there. Fishing sucks at high water anyway, so I'll be out on the rubber these next few weeks. I'm really hesitant to swamp my boat in a hole with all that weight and force of river water, especially after spending all the time building it and carrying all my gear. In my estimation the wood really isn't that bouyant in relation to river/water force. That's a pretty boat, keep her upright and living to fish another day, and maybe I'll see you on the river, if I haven't already.
Permalink Reply by Tom Martin on June 11, 2010 at 8:45am
Ahhh flipping...some of us, like me, will never be as good a boater as Roger. Some of us...um...will and have flipped. Duckies, rafts, and dories. Guess i'm from the school that says, "flip it, flip it back, and keep on goin".

This winter we ran the GEM through Grand Canyon, and flipped in Lake Mead. Go figure...

The GEM is a Grand Canyon dory, a 16 ft decked double ender with a transom, 15" rocker, 5 feet at the beam, 6 feet at the locks. It was fully loaded when i rowed into Pearce Ferry Rapid this January, hit the left side of a keeper hole, was surfed sideways and flipped in what seemed like a very short instant. The GEM is fitted with flip lines that run from a ring near each oar lock to a carbineer at the bow of the boat. These make good ropes for the passenger to hang on to in heavy water.

Hazel hung on to these ropes and stayed with the boat, while i was left hanging onto one oar, tied to the boat with a thin thread of an oar keeper. I felt the thread break as i floated away with oar still in clenched hand. Rescuer Barb Vinson rowed me back to the overturned GEM with Hazel happily perched now on the bottom of the boat. As we floated down river below the rapid, I got a flip line carbineer unhooked from the bow, worked the line to mid boat, and we both stood up, grabbed the line, and stepped back to the opposite side of the beam. The boat immediately started to roll a little. We both hung on and leaned back and the boat rolled right on over right side up.

The scuppers immediately kicked into gear as we seal-flopped back onto the boat. Bailing on our part finished the deal, and the boat was good to go. I did a quick look in all the hatches, and they were fairly water resistant, with maybe a few gallons in the worst of the bunch.

The dory had hit a rock while upside down, and one of the 3/4" splash boards, an integral part of the inboard bulkheads, had sheared cleanly off at the deck line. That was pause for understanding the power involved between a rock and a hard place, and you don't want to be anywhere near there. That's all fixed now...

So, for us, it was as easy to right as it was to flip. Had this been an undecked dory...well, the river givith and the river taketh away. Would we do it again? Certainly not intentionally, but practice leads to proficiency, and the righting was painlessly fun.

Gotta also mention one day many summers ago we were on a Grand Canyon river trip and were hiking the Tonto below Crystal. From our perch 700 feet or so above the river, we saw two open drift boats pull into the small beach on river left at Willie's Necktie. We hiked back to our boats and ran down to where the two boats, a kayak or two and a few rubber rafts were pulled in. The boats were like Greg Hatton's OBSESSION. Just stunning pieces of workmanship. The folks who were rowing them were so far above my skill set i could hardly see their feet when i looked up into the sky, and they were having a blast. They were most likely from Roger's school of river running, you know, the good one.

Hope this helps, all the best, tom
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on June 13, 2010 at 10:30am
US Coast Guard regulations allow exceptions from required flotation in drift boats if the design of the boat does not have too large of a flat spot on the bottom. The interested news is that a drift boat with a large flat spot is considered a planing hull and requires flotation to be certified to use a motor, or is required to be man power only. When does the flat spot become too big for the exemption? The Coast Guard has a semi-complex math calculation but the best way for me to explain it is that a traditional Keith Steele flat spot is approved by the Coast Guard for the exemption while the Pritchett Rogue River Dory is not. That's where the break port is. Somewhere around 50inches on a 17 ft boat depending on other factors like rocker and width.

So, if you are on rocky shallow water the open boat without flotation is more safe. If you are in big deep water the boat with decks and flotation is more safe. A boat with decks and flotation can be flipped and boats without flotation cannot.

The purpose is safety. The Coast Guard has determined that in shallow rocky rivers it is more safe for the boat to sink quickly so the people and boat stay far away from each other. If the boat is used in deep water where a motor can be used then it should have flotation so a capsized boat will float and offer an "island' for people in the water.

Any open dory, framed or not, that does not have flotation and does not have closed compartments to trap air can sink as soon as the displacement is compromised. That can happen almost any way but the four most common are:
ride up on a rock until the up river side of the boat dips below the surface;

drop into a spill over hole where the water over the spill is quickly running back up river and will push your boat back into the spill and fill you up;

turning sideways in big roller-coaster waves,

and the more common stalling out on the top of a big roller coaster wave and sliding back down the face dropping the back or the side of your boat into the river depending on if you surfed down the wave straight backwards or tipped to one side and came back sideways.

The thing that all of these have in common is that it will take about one second or less for the boat to fill and sink. It either sinks instantly it or you dodge the bullet and say "wow, that was close" Think of it like this. Everyone has stuck their hand out the window of a moving car and played with the power of the wind pushing your hand back and forth as you knife the side of your hand into it. The gunnel of the boat is your hand, the water is the wind. As soon as that boat gunnel crosses the surface of the water and dips into the river -BAM- the force of the river hitting your boat is as instant as when the wind catches the broad side of your hand.

There is no reason to put flip lines etc on a open boat in the river. Carry your rescue gear with you. Extra lines on an open boat are more danger than help. Once your boat goes down and you are in the water the boat is at the mercy of the river. Stay well away from it until it eddies out. Then you will have penalty of time to either plan you extraction or pick up the pieces. BTW, it doesn't matter if the boat is made of wood, aluminum, or fiberglass... extraction or pieces are pretty much the way it goes.

I'm always looking for the limits of a boat's performance so, yes, I have sunk boats. Never with clients:)
Permalink Reply by John Greenleaf on June 13, 2010 at 3:28pm
Along these lines..Has anybody ever used float bags with a river dory? I've used a bunch with my canoe, just wondering if this was a possibility should someone not want (or have need for) a decked boat on most occasions. J.G.
Permalink Reply by Robb Grubb on June 14, 2010 at 4:18pm
Greg,

That is a pretty boat you have. By the nature of your question, I assume you are a "what if" type of boater, which is half the battle to a successful trip with no blood or carnage. I think Roger says it best, "boat to your abilities". There will always be accidents, but checking yourself and asking "what if?" before each trip or rapid is very helpful in mitigating carnage.

I always am challenging myself and my skills in rowing, that is part of the fun of running these perfectly designed boats. I am not an adrenaline junky at all (well maybe just a little) however knowing your limits and your particular type of boat hull limits are very important. You have to use the proper tool for the task, running a wood boat and expecting luck to get you through is setting yourself up for carnage.

Everyone in this forum has great advice so far: have a plan, keep all your loose ropes under control, carry some basic survival gear "ON" you, keep that damn anchor system under control that you paid a bunch of dollars for, boat to your abilities, if you don't want to lose it, don't take it on the river or at least tie it in, ie: spare oar, first aid kit, etc., always be aware of your walk out options and know which side of the river is going to best facilitate finding civilization the quickest in an extreme situation. Obviously all these opinions are reactionary in nature except "boat to your abilities"...

An open boat will act different swamped in a lake versus in heavy river current, based on my experience (with woodys) they tend to "cup" and then float right side up (depending on how much gear you tied down versus did not). There are so many things that could happen to a boat "after" it flips that it is impossible to talk about all of the scenarios. Randy is right though, it happens really fast!!!!

I have swamped my current boat 2 or 3 times running holes or going through haystacking waves (it is open in the center and has two compartments front and back). The boat gets very heavy with 100 gallons of water in it. I have been lucky to have relatively open water downstream to bail and recover. The two compartments make it all possible. One time was on the North Umpqua River in the "Froggers" (big holes in the spring time) below Boulder flat, another was Clover Point on the Mckenzie in the winter (big waves haystacking) and another time on the Owyhee in big holes. If it was an open boat, I don't see that I could have recovered the boat so quickly (it would probably be a hood ornament on the bridge piling or wrapped around a boulder) and hopefully if it was an open boat, I would have not made the decision to run that type of water.

I carry an 8 foot piece of webbing with a carabiner on one end coiled up in my life jacket pocket to use as a flip line when rafting and driftboating. That way I can clip it anywhere to anything to flip it, tow it, tie it up, etc.

In our business of river training, we preach "formula maneuvering" which means all the basics put together being able to correlate or anticipate what maneuver to take based on the unique situation. On the relatively small volume NW rivers we run, most of the time some sort of fixed obstacle (rock, tree, snag, logjam, fishing gear, anchors, etc.) is what is going to get you in trouble. We try to engrain into our students heads that it is important to stay present in the bad situation, because 9 times out of 10, if you stay present, focused and have the skill and knowledge engrained in you, that you can get "out" of the situation.

Safe Boating,

Robb Grubb
www.RiverTraining.net
Permalink Reply by Brad Dimock on June 14, 2010 at 10:06pm
I've flipped plenty of decked dories, but never an open one. If you're heading into flippin country, I'd recommend float bags, buoyant duffel, all tied in securely, and a mindset to get on the bottom, rig a quick side line, and pull her back up pronto. Be sure your bailing bucket is tied in too!

As far as numbers of folks needed, two tall guys can right a 17' decked Briggs, whereas 3 short folks can have a hard time of it. It's all about leverage. In the high water years we would high-side for each other in Crystal. That's when we figured out the numbers and heights. One time I got lucky in Hermit and was climbing up the side of the boat when we hit another wave sideways. I stood tall, heaved back, and she came up. But as I say, that was pure luck.
Permalink Reply by Brad Dimock on June 14, 2010 at 10:38pm
I should add--practice really helps. We usually went out for flip practice on Lake Mead on our last night at the end of trips. (Warm water.) We'd roll them, swim in under, open the hatches and wash them, close them up, then flip the boats back up. A tall guy can roll an empty boat alone. We even managed to roll one without rope with about four of us clinging to the chine and pulling. Pretty silly and it would never work with a loaded boat. One thing we never managed was to pull one over end-for-end, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

Another technique we came up with in Utah when floating toward Cataract Canyon at 75,000 cfs, was how to get a fat, out of shape person into the boat after a flip without hurting yourself. We figured out that if you can get them to wait in the water and doggy-paddle into the footwell as you flip it up, they end up inside the boat and can help you in! To my knowledge the technique has never been used in an emergency, but it worked great in practice.
Permalink Reply by Charles Ray Heater on June 16, 2010 at 9:02am
Well, I've never been "out dar flippin". I guess I'm a lucky one so far. I want to add that the spare oar (or 2) must be within instant reach, not a break down stored under your seat.

As for anchor systems. Anchor systems are for fishing, not river running, at least not technical river runs. The worst anchor systems are the types that the flyfishermen use, the underfloor type. In running a technical river any anchor system should be disengaged with the anchor and rope placed in a bucket in the back in case the boat goes over. Keep your anchor rope away from your feet. When fishing with your anchor system engaged have a back up rope cleat. Do not rely on a single anchor rope cleat. I have had (once) the primary cleat system fail in whitewater and it was goodby to rope and anchor. DON"T KNOT THE END OF THE ANCHOR LINE.
Permalink Reply by Randy Dersham on June 16, 2010 at 12:10pm
hear, hear.... great advice!

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