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Permalink Reply by lhedrick on May 1, 2011 at 7:38am

Here is a photo of a boat built by Mark Jones.  I think he might have been from around Jackson.  Don't know where he got the design or if it was his design.  I remember him calling it a gun boat or something.  The image is from somewhere on the snake.

 

 

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• Dory Snake River.jpg, 36 KB

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Permalink Reply by Don Hanson on May 1, 2011 at 8:40am

  That looks like "the Lunch Counter", a ledge-wave in the Snake R. Canyon.  Interesting boat, looks like Mark is either going swimming soon or he will be bailing.

  The design I have in mind is really more of a refinement of the traditional dory shape.  Mark's boat, shown in that pic, it is a more radical deviation than I had in mind.

My thinking was the basic shape we all use is right,  but it could probably be improved, at the cost of a little more labor,  more builder's skill. 

We've built boats with the basic river dory shape because they are quick and easy to frame and because the shape suited the available materials.  With more modern materials and glues and fabrics, it would not be too difficult to "bevel-off" that hard chine we always see on wooden  river dories.  Not the large, half-way up the side extra chine like in the pic of Mark's boat, but more just an elimination of the Corner between the sides and the bottom.  You would still have the wide, flat bottom for stability, and the flared sides for reserve buoyancy, but you would not have that chine to "trip" the boat crossing eddy lines.

  Think of canoes...Lake canoes have a long keel, usually an inch or two deep, bow to stern...Paddling one in a river is....exciting.  Every time you enter a changing current, that hard keel gets grabbed, causing the canoe to tip.  An identical canoe without the keel...works fine...Grumman's are like that...same boat for lakes and rivers..just one with no keel.

 

  Rambling, I am...sorry

  Don Hanson

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on May 2, 2011 at 9:03am

Don, While there are some canoes with a keel they seem to have because of ease of manufacture, I believe that Grumman and other aluminum boat manufacturers had excess manufacturing capacity after WWII, or the Korean War and had developed excellent techniques for joining formed aluminum shapes. No, I don't have any proof to back this up just the evidence that many aluminum canoes started appearing. The point is the keels that appeared and kept appearing were an artifact left over from a manufacturing process rather than an actual design need. While the keels provide some directional stability if you have ever observed a bunch of new canoeists you wouldn't see much directional stability. Dependent upon the skills of the canoeist a keeled Grumman canoe can do some amazing things. And yes the keel does catch unsuspecting canoeists when crossing the eddy line. However the keel can be used to use the eddyline to rapidly change direction when leaving an eddy. Appropriate action by both paddlers is what makes it all happen. A timely brace and a draw by the other will swing the boat around quickly and safely.

 

With all that being said the design of canoe and also kayak hulls has progressed a great deal from those aluminum designs. Also consider that the older wood on canvas canoes  did not have a keel and similar skills we required to successfully keep the canoe upright. Varying canoe designs have varying amounts of initial and secondary stability. A Grumman style canoe has high initial stability but very poor secondary stability. While you can lean this style of canoe a small amount and not tip it when you reach the secondary stability point without a paddler providing an outside influence such as a brace (paddle face applied parallel to the surface of the water either staionary or moving in a sweeping motion) the Grumman style canoe will quickly tip over.

 

A more modern style canoe with less of a hard chine but a more rounded side with a soft chine looses some initial stability but gains secondary stability. A more experienced paddler that uses developed skills uses these features to increase the manuverability of the canoe. When rocker is added to both ends of the boat the turning capacity increases even further.  As the ability to turn quickly increases the skills required to effectively use this ability correspondingly goes up. But so does the fun factor. The talents required to now propel these boats in a straight line increases.

 

Where am I going with all of this? You are bringing up some design ideas that I have long considered. I progressed in my canoeing skills from a flat water paddler to a certified canoe instructor in both flat water and white water. The most radical white water canoe I ever paddled was a Royalex hulled whitewater single open playboat. Poor initial stability, high secondary stability, very highly rockered exceedingly manueverable boat. Terrible in a straight line but great  to turn, catch eddies, ride big waves, surf on upstream waves either bow upstream, stern upstream or even abeam the wave. I was fortunate to receive instruction from some of the top whitewater solo canoeists. You haven't lived until you have been window shaded in a hole repeatedly until you finally overcome your fear of being underwater. If you are not familiar with these boats you a kneeling on a foam pedestal and you have knee straps and foot braces to hold your self in. Window shading to me is when you are side surfing, balancing your boats hull on the face of a wave with your bull perpendicular to the river and when you loose your balance you spin on the long axis of the boat and your instructors save you and you repeat it until you learn the skills.

 

I have often considered a driftboat hull with some of these characteristics would be really cool. So in relation to your question how about a soft chine I think you are moving into some very interesting design characteristics. When you brought up your concerns about driftboat hull design based on ease of production and not on traditional boat building techniques I knew you brought some interesting new ideas into play.

 

A driftboat constructed with more traditional hull design, something like the Bartender with a secondary chine with both being soft rather than hard would be interesting. As always boat design and especially changes in boat design come with tradeoffs. So would a driftboat with more of an ocean going boat design have some advantages? I think yes. But just like I mentioned above with canoes as the hull is capable of more maneuvering more skills are required to fully utilize the abilities. One skill most oarsmen have not yet had to develop is a brace like a canoeist or kayaker uses. I am not saying that some have not developed a good brace, however it is not something I see many display. If you are rowing a hard chine boat you could use the hard chine to catch the eddyline, brace with one oar and dig in with the other to turn quickly either upstream or down.  A Mckenzie River style dory / driftboat could use this technique. A soft chine boat, more like a kayak would have to have a method of leaning the hull and bracing and digging to achieve the same turn. Hmm, knee straps and moving passengers, like the monkey on a racing sidecar motorcycle!

 

I know this was a long discourse but I think it would be very interesting to combine traditional driftboat design with traditional boat building design would be very intriguing. If you combined Ukaladies desire for a "throwaway" boat design you could do some inexpensive trial and error.

 

Now I have a fourth new boat to build!

 

Happy Waves and Sawdust to you!

 

Rick Newman

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Eric Loudenslager on May 1, 2011 at 9:41am

Don,

 

Search back through the discussions to find past exchanges on the topic of chine design.  Sounds like the chine you are describing is found on most stitch-and-glue dories.  S&G do not have an exterior chine batten, and need to round-over the chine to get glass to lay over the joint.  The extent of round-over is a matter of personal preference.  Some boats have been very round, others less so.

 

The traditional framed boat builders believe the framed design provides better ferry performance.  S&G builders fear the infamous "chine-dip".  I suspect the topic will be a perpetual source of debate.

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Permalink Reply by Don Hanson on May 1, 2011 at 11:21am

  Will do the search.  Thanks

  I haven't looked that closely at the stitch and glue boats and their chine details.  Makes sense, though, if they are laying cloth tape along the chine.

  Don Hanson

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Permalink Reply by chris towles on May 2, 2011 at 11:09am

well, i guess i come at this question a little differantly. im a kayaker, have been for almost 15 years now. i have watched boat design  in kayaks change dramitically during my time in the sport. i've also owned way more kayaks than i could count on my hands, and paddled just about every playboat designed in the last 15 years at some point or another. its been interesting to see what worked, what didn't, and which designs exceled in certain areas which influenced the next design evolution the following year. my main focus was always on surfing, so i looked for certain chine profiles...generally a sharp double chine and steep sidewalls. these boats with an aggressive chine profile carved excellent on a wave, but would be grabby on eddylines. over time, the second double chine was rounded to prevent grabbing but the sidewall chine stayed sharp,,eventually rounding over time also slightly while still being pronounced. asd i said these boats surfed great, but that full chine profile could be grabby. i liken the playboat chine design to a traditional mckensie because the mckenzie has a planing hull, hard  chines, and steep sidewalls. like a playboat, the mckenzie can "carve" into and out of places. however, just like the playboat chine profile it is prone to catching on things like squirlly eddy lines, eddy fences, rocks, etc.

 

an interesting thing happened in boat design though regarding creek kayaks designed for heavy water. when the whole planing hull revolution took over kayaking in the late 90's, creek boats followed suit. it was the next big thing in boat design, so for a short few years, creekers all had planing hulls, steep sidewalls, and rounded but still pronounced hard chine profiles. looked great on paper, but people were soon finding out that hard chines and class V didn't mix so well. the chines on the boats caught on rocks, and caused many a hairy rockslide flip. the boats would get beat up in the toilet bowl water cause of the chines. the flat sidewalls were also a liability because they didn't bounce off stuff that well. as well, the rocker profiles were all wrong...lots of flat hulls with "kick rocker" in the ends. the quick rocker profile at the tips would cause the boats  to bounce up and surface too quickly when hitting a hole and ,many times you would get back endered back into the knarly hole from whence you came. no fun. so design changed to accomodate heavy water better. many boats went back to "displacement" hulls entirely..the rounded profile has no real discernable chines. however, when that happened, people realized that old designs still kinda sucked, so they had to figure out how to mix and match. my favorite creek boat i had back then had a rounded chine profile in the center of the boat, it had a slightly pronounced but well rounded chine profile in the center of the boat, as the profile moved from the center twords the ends of the boat, it  got gradually more like a planing hull with a flat bottom and hard edges. what this boat was great at was taking on heavy water and being able to use your end edges to carve, when you get in an eddy and are upright entirly the boat has the rounded profile in the water and thus is less prone to catching on rocks or eddylines. the rocker profile changed alot too, many of todays designs use a more gradual profile from seat forward, with smaller kick rocker in the tips...less prone to pushing you back into stuff. the design worked incredibly well in real use..good enough that i just bought another of that same design off craigslist a few days back =)

 

anyhow, my point is that your ideas do have real merit here. sometimes you need to think out of the box and not be afraid to fail. some of these concepts have been proven to work well in other applications not too far from the mark you are looking for. unfortunatly, many in the driftboat world seem to be very focused on the past and disinterested in the future. thats all fine and good too, wood boats are classic. they have stood the test of time and proven their usefulness in rivers of all kinds throughout the country. the forfathers of boatbuilding used what they had available to them to make boats as quickly and cheaply as possible. their handiwork, craftmenship, and gumption is the reason we are all here today. however, as many have pointed out, the designs became what they were mostly out of neccesity..thats how big their materials were, so you build a boat out of that...only 4 sheets of plywood. talk about being efficiant. all that said, while i think the past is great, i've always thought of myself as more of a forward thinker. part of why i love boat building is because i like to create. i have no interest in recreating the same thing over and over. its like playing the same guitar solo everynight over and over. at some you need to play something new or you will lose interest. same for me. my next boat will probably be a hybrid s&g boat with mucho plascore and high tech composites, i'm interested to play with some of the design variables myself, and make the design my own.. i'll probably build a low profile framed boat on the uber cheap after too..i already have 2 sheets of 1/2 marine fir for the hull. as i said, i do see merit to the old style...it is very proven to work. anyhow, my point is while tradition is great, it is not the only way to do things. i would think that with all of your boatbuilding experiance you could design one hell of a water craft...i for one would love to see the results.   theres more than one way to skin a cat as they say...

chris

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on May 2, 2011 at 2:13pm

Chris, I am excted by yourboat design ideas, it will be exciting to see where things go. I come from the Dancer school of kayak design and haven't paddled anything newer, except for sea kayaks. Where are you located, would be fun to compare ideas on boat design.

 

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by chris towles on May 2, 2011 at 7:24pm

Rick, I am in Jackson. I'll be at the boat show the 28th and look forward to meeting some of the wooden boat people. Will u be there?

As to my next design, it will likely be a 17x54 with center decking and front and rear bulkheads. I'll prob build it s&g with a plascorehull, 1/4 sides and a 6" plascorehull chine batten/ rub rail combo. I'll also probably be using a variety on composites. Kevlar in the impact areas, 17oz biax, and Mabye some dynel in wear areas such as the chine. I'm excited to take my knowledge from the kayak world and apply things I have seen work elsewhere. I have been running full glass kayaks as long as I have been boating, so I have a fair bit of experience with composites. I will probably experiment with peel ply also, in the past I have seen great results in the kayak world, psyched to for "pre faired" panels

All that said, I have some extra marine ply laying around and I will probably build a quick and cheap framed fishing boat just to do it. There is Definatly something to be said the simplicity of a framed boat. Back before we had all these high tech materials they were still making great boats and some are still around today. I am psyched to build a boat " the old way" too. This boat building thing is like cigarettes, it's a nasty habit which is not good for your body, and it's impossible to quit
Chris

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Permalink Reply by Rick Newman on May 2, 2011 at 8:50pm

Chris, I would love to meet everyone in Wilson, just need to lineup a few hundred extra dollars for food and fuel and pay for boat materials and the last trip to Vida!

I enjoy mixing materials especially if I think that they make sense both economically and for durability. Perhaps you have used S-Glass in some of your boats. The inside of the side panels in my current build has 3.7 oz and the interior of the floor has 12 oz bi-axial. The side panels will have epoxy on both sides and urethane coating on both sides, applied while still in pieces. The plywood will be varnished and the interior frames and thwarts will be oiled as will the gunwales, battens and chine log. The floor will be prefinished with oil based porch paint, sort of a rust/mahogany color. The bottom will get a lamination of 17oz E-Glass bi-axial weave. Then several coats of epoxy and graphite.

 

I want a durable, good looking boat that can withstand moderate damage without hopefully needing riverside repairs beyond duct tape and epoxy putty. I also want to try several different finishing materials all on the same boat in order to see how they compare for durability and longevity.

When I initially epoxied my side panels I tried Brad Dimocks idea of using Dura-Lar an acetate type material to achieve a more faired surface. What I learned was it can be done, but use the thickest material, 7 mil is the thickest I tried. Be sure to remove all bubbles and get an even thickness on your epoxy. You can achieve a very flat surface, mirror like. But if you don't remove the excess air and epoxy you get bubbles within the finishede laminations. some are almost microscopic, however you can also get a "bubble-train" of connected spaces that needs to be filled in. I could only find a variety of Dura-Lar in Spokane and was in a hurry, trying to ready the boat for the McKenzie festival. If and when I try the system again I think that I will bite the bullet and do a vacuum system to pull the Dura-Lar down and to remove excess epoxy. Then everything can be smooth, pre-faired and have just the right amount of epoxy. The systems are out there, I just have to make some more extra money!

 

I will post pictures later showing some of the results and issues. I also want to try a plascore hulled boat. My idea for that is to build a solo whitewater play/driftboat. I miss the days of whitewater canoeing and kayaking.

 

I think that there is room in driftboating for new ideas, combination's of new and old that bring different worlds together.

What kayaks have you evolved to? Are you or others building your own hull designs? I have working on glass sea kayaks, Enitai designs from Seattle twenty plus years ago.

Do you remember the old Lettman design kayaks?

 

Happy Waves to you,

 

Rick Newman

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Permalink Reply by chris towles on May 2, 2011 at 9:59pm

Rick, I hear ya on the trip. With gas what it is right now, traveling is pricy. I was out in the driveway today working on the boat and getting her ready for the season. Still have some finish details from last year to attend to. Funny how floating and fishing can make those last few details take forever to finish.

As for materials, I have used s glass before but never on my driftboat. Used it to make some car stereo speaker cabinets years back. It is great stuff but is costly. I like the 6 oz e glass for sides, and 17oz biax on the hull. Kevlar is bulletproof(literally) on impact areas especially when used in the inside of a layup. We used it alot as the inside layer of our 6/7 layer glass squirt boats back in the day, and those boats would last forever because nothing could break enough to go thru the Kevlar. I'd like to use it with plascore to act as a puncture proof layer in the layup. I've also thought about using Kevlar tape in combo with a 6" full plascore batten rub rail combo. The Chine would then be wrapped with dynel on the edges in wear areas. The result would be a full plascore Chine area that is resistsntt to impacts and has a high wear material so you are not always doing Chine work.

On the design front, I don't intend to reinvent the wheel too much. I know the size I want. I know I want a 4' flat spot in the center of the rocker, then hopefully gradual rocker to the tips and a bit of kick rocker in the very ends. I have thought about trying a curved stem, and possibly a curved transom bottom a la Hyde dirftboats too. All that said, I'll probably look at a few designs and come up with my numbers from there based on their rocker profile and beam widths.

And as for the kayaks...there has been a ton I have had. in order: a new wave sleek, bigfoot squirt boat, riot glide, riot 007, underdawg squirt boat, riot trickster, riot disco, riot dominatrix 44, wavesport xxx c1, shred squirt boat, piranha s6 190, pyranha s6 200, riot air 55, riot turbo 52, and I am in the market for a new playboat. I've also had a few creekers: riot kix, riot sick, riot big gun, perception java, and now a big gun expedition.

I think I'll leave the kayak design to the pros, but I do love building drift boats
Cheers
Chris

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Permalink Reply by Brad Dimock on May 3, 2011 at 7:00am

I'd be leery of making too soft a chine. Once you learn the tricks of using that hard chine edge to make moves, pries, and ferries, it becomes one of the coolest tools you've got. It's what enables you to do so many things that a soft-edged raft cannot dream of.

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Permalink Reply by Kelly Neu on May 6, 2011 at 11:04am

Hi Don,

I was wondering the same thing when I was planning to build my dory. I got steered away from the idea. Here is the feedback I got:

Some of the old Butler boats had an extremely rounded chine and they handled poorly. A bit like an outta control bronco. Apparently it was difficult to keep them on a line. Had that squishy raft feel.

Personally I love that "hard chine" . Gives your boat that feeling like you've got sharped ski edges. Sure helps in maneuvering when you've got wimpy arms like mine!
-Kelly

Cool idea though.Can't wait to see what you come up with. There is always room for innovation!

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